jhameia | Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged.... No, Really?

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Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged.... No, Really?

So a youth pastor is now facing charges of sexual assault on a 14-yr-old girl from his church.

"Caldwell was charged with 6 counts of statutory rape of a 14-year-old, three counts of statutory sex offense of a 14-year-old and eight counts of taking indecent liberties with a minor."

After which he was re-arrested:
"After originally posting bond, a High Point youth pastor and Christian school athletic director was re-arrested on 19 additional sex charges.

At the second website, someone wrote this in the comments:

LindsayFnWhite wrote:
Well it’s like this. He may be a YOUTH pastor, but he’s NOT GOD! He IS HUMAN, just like the rest of us. We all make mistakes, but it’s not our option to judge him, discriminate him, or anything else. God will do that for us. What’s done is done, and no he’s not right, but what bout them little girls, they know how to say NO! Why are they messing with a married man with a wife and kids? You have to look at both sides of the story, yes he’s older and knows better, but them little teenagers these days, psh their parents don’t care letting them wear whatever, do whatever with friends, watch whatever on TV, and so forth. If these kids were true Christians they would have said no. Like I said he’s the older one and the youth pastor, but still it’s takes two!! And the next time you think oh well he should have this and that done to him, next time you lie, cheat, steal, cuss, dishonor your parents, lust, gossip, whatever it may be, just remember you committing a sin just as big as he is.

Galatians 6:1 Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly, should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation. 6:3 IF YOU THINK YOU ARE TOO IMPORTANT TO HELP SOMEONE, YOU ARE ONLY FOOLING YOURSELF. YOU ARE NOT THAT IMPORTANT.

That’s God’s words...believe it.

I do!

I'm not sure which part of the comment is worse:

"What's done is done" or "Why are little girls messing around with a married man?" or "these kids aren't true Christians, they watch TV / wear whatever they want / do whatever they want with friends" or "he may be the youth pastor but rape still takes two" or "gossiping, lying, lusting, cussing is as bad as rape" or "OMG GUYZ WHY ARE YOU CONDEMNING HIM?? HELP HIM!"

Just... ugh. How much brainpower does it take that hurting another human being, especially one weaker than you and lower in the hierarchy from him is a crime?

And this "if a 14-year-old girl and a 29-year-old man are involved, he's just a weak vessel and she's a conniving temptress" thing - No, really. One must inquire: how does a person arrive at this conclusion?

CURIOUS MINDS ARE CURIOUS.

via Pandagon

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Don't forget the implication that they're somehow responsible for being on the receiving end of a sexual assault. Ages notwithstanding that's a whole other line beyond the 'messing around' that dolt you quoted seems to think was going on. Oh, and "we can't judge him, unlike those little harlots who we can judge!"

I'm half-tempted to consider the person posting those comments (there's multiple ones from the same person on that article) is roleplaying a particularly broken fundie, but I've also run into some who manage to out-nasty that, so I dunno.

(I like how she completely rewrites the verses in question too. True pious Christian indeed!)

That's the problem with the Internet... you find these people who say these things... and they actually believe in what they're saying too.

Yep. Met a few in person too, though, so... ugh.

I think the bigger and deeper issue is, why does this so frequently happen in religious institutions? Or, looked at differently, is it more common among Clergy (of all shapes, sizes, and flavors) or is this just representative of the population as a whole?

Either way, the real problem with religion is it's ability to take something like this, sweep it under the rug, then gloss over it with scripture to make it seem like it either didn't happen or was the victim's fault.

I think one of the troubles with religion is it attracts people of a certain mental facility, who think that by adopting the rules and dogma of something "ordained by god" that they are incapable of doing anything wrong. They've got a big ol' get out of jail free card to do whatever they want. I'm not saying they do, but that people who believe in this kind of crap are attracted to the religious lifestyle because of it's certainty.

It's the certainty that is the problem. Once you are sure and inextricably interwoven in a belief structure, that gives you leeway to justify any behavior that pleases you. This is the problem with almost all religions.

It's been my experience that very few people have anything resembling self control when it comes to doing things they really want to do... even if it is not in their best interest. Religion just gives these people one more excuse to not exercise their self control.

Bah. Now I'm depressed.

Either way, the real problem with religion is it's ability to take something like this, sweep it under the rug, then gloss over it with scripture to make it seem like it either didn't happen or was the victim's fault.

That's not religion, that's the institutions that purport to be religious.

Like many other things, religion is neither intrinsically good nor evil. I find religion to be a good thing in many cases - it enables people to come together to support one another, fosters community building, and Jesus was awesome. (Jesus even trumps Buddha in my book, now that I think about it.)

It's the people. Even if we took religion out of the context, this attitude would still persist. We just happen to highlight those that happen in religious institutions because it's so shocking that a purportedly good man is doing such things zomg!

My dear, that has always been the problem with religion. It is a construct created by people, who always build things to support their chosen lifestyles. Despite what the Semitic religions would tell you, man always creates god in his/her own image. This is why all gods have the same flaws, desires, kinks, passions, and psychological problems that men do. We made them. Is it any wonder they are contradictory?

Jesus himself was not the great person his adherents would make him out to be, and neither was Sidhartha. In my book Sidhartha was the more moral person because he never tried to force, trick, intimidate, or otherwise coerce anyone into believing what he did. He simply taught what he believed to those who came to him. (If you wonder what I'm talking about, look into the Gnostic Bible and it's gospels. Then ask yourself why the Council of Trent had them excised from the approved text. Also ask yourself if all these things Jesus supposedly did were for an ulterior motive.)

And yet, even Buddhism is fraught with dishonesty and corruption. Just look at what a rat bastard the Dali Lama really is. Homophobic, elitist, and desperate to go back to a small country where the priesthood was in charge. In many ways he has a far better life now than he ever did as the religious despot of a tiny third world country, and yet he desires to return for the power it would bring him. Yet even if he never returns, he has power and influence far beyond his moral authority.

Keep your religions. Do you realize that more death, hatred, rape, war, cruelty, and downright mean behavior has been done historically in the name of religion than for any other single reason? Do those few good works done by these organizations absolve them of the responsibility for all these horrible acts? Not in my book.

Do those few good works done by these organizations absolve them of the responsibility for all these horrible acts?

You have absolutely no clue. People today focus on right-wing Christian extremists as representative of all Christians and that's just not true any more than the Muslim terrorists are representative of a typical Muslim.

Christian activists were behind everything from the abolition of slavery in America, to early child labor laws in England, to establishing safe institutions and protection for the mentally handicapped, to disaster relief efforts in this century. Unfortunately, all the good things that religious organizations do gets completely overlooked by the media.

What makes a hotter story:
"Youth pastor molests a prepubescent girl" or "Christian groups rally to stamp out Malaria (http://www.biteback.net/) and save over 50,000 infant deaths by fund-raising and distributing mosquito screens"?

Please don't assume that faith groups don't do any good in this world. To the contrary, they're far more financially generous and socially active towards social justice and charity than the typical non-believing citizen.

And those whack-job right-wingers who give religion a bad name--Do you really, honestly believe they're doing it for their god? The offensive behavior of the modern-day Christian extremist is so completely opposite of the faith teachings of Jesus, that I'd argue they shouldn't even be classified as Christian.

People will use whatever excuse they want to conduct their wars and evil desires. If religion was erased from the face of the earth this second, there would still be the same wars, sexism, and oppression, but with a different excuse attached to it. The religion itself is not the problem. It's the humans who will twist it (or any other excuse) to their ends that's the problem.

This whacked-out woman who's defending the youth pastor tries to use faith to excuse his behavior and people freak out. But if the same person had held up, "Society's to blame!" or "He was molested as a child himself!" would readers be just as upset? Bullshit defense is bullshit regardless of where it comes from.

This is why all gods have the same flaws, desires, kinks, passions, and psychological problems that men do.

Where do you get this stuff? You must be thinking of the Greco-Roman gods; the Judeo-Christian god is not at all like that.

I'm not trying to argue or jump down your throat. I'm just hurt. And I'm sick and tired of agnostics/atheists coming down on all religion like a hammer.

I'm not that person you're describing in your statements of blanket hatred towards all faith groups.

I'm a liberal. I'm a feminist. I'm bisexual. I'm a Christian.
I donate 15% of my income to charity. I share my goods with the poor when I meet someone in need. I'm an activist for social justice. I counsel troubled teenagers. I'll give a lift to an old woman who just missed her bus. I never force my beliefs or condemn anyone. I believe and live a lifestyle where I put others before myself and treat others how I would wish to be treated. I do this because I love my God. He is a God of kindness and mercy and this is how he would want his followers to live.

Please stop hating me. I don't hate you.

I don't hate you. I don't hate anyone or anything. You have taken my comments to be aimed at your specific religious group, when it was not. I find all religions to be equally at fault in most of my critique. I will (somewhat) except certain Buddhist sects and will give a pass to Sikhs for some really awesome philosophical requirements. What I have is a critical mind and an education into the contradictions inherent in the philosophy of religions and their realities.

This is why all gods have the same flaws, desires, kinks, passions, and psychological problems that men do.

Where do you get this stuff? You must be thinking of the Greco-Roman gods; the Judeo-Christian god is not at all like that.

I suggest you read your scripture more closely, and educate yourself on other religions. Let's take the Judeo-Christian god as an easy example: Quote: "...For I am a jealous God." Jealousy is a psychological problem of men. A truly loving god would not succumb to anything as mortal as jealousy. Or vengeance. A god that sends a horde of bears to tear children apart for mocking one of his holy men isn't exactly a loving or forgiving god. Lust? Got that too. Big on impregnating virgins, and even isn't above a little incest and/or polygamy. And don't get me started on penis's and foreskins. That's a kink of another kind.

Now let's take the assertion that Christians brought about the civil rights revolution or the abolition of Slavery. Do you realize that Christian scripture, dogma, and culture was used to justify slavery far more than it was ever used to condemn it? The fact that Martin Luther King JR was a Baptist minister is irrelevant. There were just as many leaders of other churches at the time fighting against civil rights.

Your assertion that religion brings people together is simply not true. By it's very nature religious groups are divisive. They categorize people into groups of "Us" and "Them". This is why we have terms like "Gentile", "Apostate" and "Infidel". Just because a religion accepts anybody into it's ranks does not mean it is accepting of anybody. It is in fact a mechanism of separating those that believe the same as we do from the rest of the world. Anyone who doesn't share the common view from within the religion is by definition not included. Look what happened just recently with the Pope excommunicating the mother, doctor, and victim after an abortion was performed on a 9 year old girl pregnant with an incestuous rape-acquired baby. The father, on the other hand, said his nine "Hail Mary's" and seven "Our Fathers" and is all good.

At least the Eastern religions are up front about their gods and their habits. Gods for every special occasion, sexual practice, moral ambiguity, and time of day. I don't think this is right, but I give them credit for less hypocrisy.

Faith based groups may do a lot of good work in this world, but they also do an equal amount of carnage. Look what's happening in Africa with the Abstinence only education by faith based organizations. Or again, what the Pope just said; "...condom use is causing the AIDS epidemic to become worse."

No, I don't hate you or your religion. If you find comfort in it then that's fine. I accept religion for what it is and reject it in my life. I accept all people for what they are regardless of their religion. Do you know that I've actually had a friend who is devoutly Christian look at me and say: "How can you not be Christian? You live the most Christ-like life of anybody I know." I hope not. Jesus was one of the biggest egotistical bastards in the bible, never above showing off or using his powers to convert people to his way of thinking, but also doing these things for his own benefit without regard for anybody else. Me, I do good works, am nice to people, refrain from alcohol and drugs, and avoid jealousy revenge and other "immoral" activity because living a worthwhile life is it's own reward. I don't need a religion to tell me I'm doing the right thing, and I have no religion to make me feel bad when I accept someone on their own merits instead of through the prism of that religion's dogma.

Here endeth the lesson.

Your intolerance and close-mindedness unsettle me. =( I regret trying to have this discussion with you. Talking someone who has a completely closed mind is a waste of my time.

He has his own life with his own conclusions. Asking him to change his mind is like telling him to get a different life from the one he lived, and that's just not possible. At least he shared with you his reasons instead of slamming you out completely. Just because he hates the institution of religion which you find comfort in doesn't mean he'd hate you personally if he met you.

Thank you. That's my point. Am I closed minded because I have researched my opinions? Because I can back up my beliefs with fact? Because I think for myself instead of having my knowledge fed to me by "Authorities" without question?

A closed mind is one that accepts ideas without examining them. I always examine my own ideas and will listen to any rational argument. My mind is open to be changed. Are you up to the task?

I'm not asking anyone to change their minds and agree with me; I just want people to have an open mind and listen. To stop hating all spiritually-minded people and talking about us like we're all the same. I'm happy to learn about a differing viewpoint from someone who can share where they're coming from without them blanket-hating and finger-pointing at one group (in this case, my group) as being the root of all evil.

Brain-washed unthinking religious zealots freak me right out. But we're not all like that. I'm not like that, but T is painting us all the same color. That's where the problem lies. Some religious people are hateful, but not all of them. Some religious people use their faith to excuse intolerable acts. Others use their faith to save lives and push for equality and peace. T's statement of "All religious people are like this" is fundamentally flawed because there are so many exceptions to this rule.

I enjoy my discussions with you, Jha, because even though we both disagree on a lot of points, I feel like we can both discuss our views and be heard. And be civil in the process. =/ I'm just not feeling that vibe here, so I'll let it go.

That's not religion, that's the institutions that purport to be religious.

Like many other things, religion is neither intrinsically good nor evil. I find religion to be a good thing in many cases - it enables people to come together to support one another, fosters community building, and Jesus was awesome. (Jesus even trumps Buddha in my book, now that I think about it.)

Thank you.

What a sick, stupid bitch. I really wish her viewpoint wasn't so damned widespread.

I wonder if some one wrote that just to bait people into a flame-war..

What’s done is done, and no he’s not right, but what bout them little girls, they know how to say NO!

And so does a grown man. He should've said 'NO!' to himself as soon as he realized that he was lusting after a 14 year old girl.

Rape does NOT take two. It only takes one sick mind to decide to violate another person.

It's scary how people can actually believe this bullshit.

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Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged.... No, Really?

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baiting?

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