(no subject)

[jhameia]

So tonight I revisited a post written by the awesome cycads on "foreign bodies as sexual playgrounds". Namely, the fetishization of foreign women by (mostly white) men.

I've said before, one of the reasons why I don't often discuss my own fetishes is that I don't feel I can own them, because I, as an Asian woman, AM a fetish. Most people don't surf for "white girl porn". They're usually just looking for porn. But "Asian" - ah, that's a specialty genre. It creeps me out when I hear guys drool over how cute Asian girls are (and usually, girls), how Eastern brides (whether or not Asian, sometimes European) are so much more submissive than [America]s.

Tonight, I read a(n admittedly old) comment which perfectly exemplifies all the fucking skeeviness about guys searching for foreign brides:

Right now, I have been hoping to find a nice foreign wife, and I am most interested particular groups. I would be greatly satisfied to find an equally special wife of my own ethnicity, but I want her different ethnicity cultural background to in a way help represent a certain pureness that is not easily obtained.

What is this pureness, cycads asks. Surely you mean 'uniqueness'. Oh no, according to this guy,

The [laugh]….”pureness” I was speaking of is actually all part of my intent to find a girl whose character is is very special. A virtuous woman.

This virtuous woman, who must be specifically from a different ethnicity and heritage because somehow, that enables her to retain her purity? What the hell does her heritage have to do with it, besides his wanting to spread his genetics further afield (ew yuck!)?

Her difference and race is an additional attempt to amplify the idea. Kinda like pulling an angel from the heavens into a land far from their own.

HOLD ON.

....

HOLD ON.

....

OH MY JESUS ALLAH BUDDHA.

Kinda like pulling an angel from the heavens into a land far from their own.

OH, HI, GUY?

We are not your pets and toys.

We do not exist to be shaped and molded by you.

In fact, that is VERY reminiscent of what abusers do to their victims: isolate them from where they belong to, force them to conform to their ideals.

WTF is this? It's so reminiscent of guys who take virgins so they can train said virgins to their own specific tastes. Sure, it makes sense on some level. If you, you know, make the assumption that your partner is not a person who deserves to live and be shaped by her own experiences. If you like your partner to not be her own person when you claim her.

The whole "partner as possession" factor is made of creepiness. I used to think it was hot, but the more confident I become in myself, the more independent I am (and liking it), the scarier this thought is. And it is everywhere.

The worst thing? This is supposed to be ROMANTIC. The whole "average dude wins angel" trope is supposed to be AWESOME and COOL because it shows that WOMEN ARE TOTALLY NOT SUPERFICIAL (no wait, isn't it the OTHER way around???) and that Good Guys Win the Girl!

Sick sad Nice Guy™ Waiting To Happen backpedals:

It’s clear you may not have immediately understood that I didn’t mean by force and I didn’t literally mean “pulling”. I simply mean just earning the company of someone by “drawing” their attention or interests to oneself.

My response? It is clear you do not come even close to comprehending just how goddamn problematic that framing is. It doesn't matter that you didn't mean that literally. Either way, if that is what you mean, you are filled with Communication Fail.

The company of women is not something to be "earned". By saying that, you frame women as something to be "earned", thus as trophies, as objects to be won. Ergo, as objects.

It is clear you do not even realize you have echoed the sentiments of abusers who isolate their victims, taking the latter from places of comfort for the former's amusement (or sense of control). Or maybe you do realize it and you're just backpedaling.

It is clear you do not even see how you have Other'd cultures different from your own, and women in general.

It is also damned clear you are a Nice Guy-ism™ waiting to happen.

Hell, you know what, I don't even care what you meant.

Attitudes like that are poisonous to both men and women, setting up impossible standards, boxing people into specific codes of behaviour which we could all do without. I am NOT an exotic foreign bride waiting to enter into your life and give you the happiness you oh-so-long-for - neither is ANY OTHER WOMAN, whether Asian or not.

Women aren't trophies, dammit. We're not the fucking Stanley Cup, we're not something you EARN like a fucking salary to keep you alive, we're not something you turn tricks for so you can get our attention. We're people. Stop talking about us like we're not.

*stabbities*

Comments

[ardwynna-m.livejournal.com]

*hands you big serrated knife*

[jolantru.livejournal.com]

Ditto!

[zibblsnrt.livejournal.com]

It’s clear you may not have immediately understood that I didn’t mean by force and I didn’t literally mean “pulling”. I simply mean . . . “drawing” their attention...

Am I the only one who sees those as almost entirely synonymous terms anyway?

[eiko82.livejournal.com]

Good on you for telling off this creep!

[smile]....

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a creep because someone made my comments seem bad because they didn't just responded to my post like this,“Oh, well, he doesn’t mean to refer to the woman’s heart/love as just something to toss around. He’s just speaking figuratively with no means to be careless in disrespect. Hopefully he doesn't actually mean they are such. Let me kindly let him know I understand, but he should be careful to refer to them as trophies.” Instead, they just said “(reading)……TROPHIES!!! I KNOW HE DIDN’T JUST REFER TO WOMEN AS TROPHIES! WHAT A JERK! I’m gonna tell him off!” I even apologized at somewhere in the end of the post saying "AGAIN, I don’t expect perfection at all, but I am looking for a girl of very good character and there are many many girls like that. Just so hard to find them. [laugh]….But yeah, that’s all I meant about the heaven thing. Sorry about that misunderstanding and that with the :S trophy idea. Incorrect choice of WORDING." I still didn't mean it in the way many of you may have taken it. I only meant....[sigh]....I just meant something (referring to the heart and love, not people/women/men) very good. NOT LITERALLY TROPHIES or anything of equally realistic value.

Re: [smile]....

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

Lesson #gazillion: Intent doesn't matter. The effect of your words do. By using that language, of positing women as "trophies", you used objectifying language that has long been used to set women aside as an Other, a language that has been used to justify treating women as Less-Than.

We miiiiiiiiight have let you off the hook if "sorry" was the only thing you said. No, you had go let your mouth run off in other horrible directions.

Re: [smile]....

[(Anonymous)]

Uhhh, ok, so it's clear that YOU DO KNOW MY INTENT. The intent is important for your understanding how to approach me. It's also clear that you still want to poke me because the words are there. Now you're just being mean. [laugh]...

Re: [smile]....

[tariq-kamal.livejournal.com]

AGAIN, I don’t expect perfection at all, but I am looking for a girl of very good character and there are many many girls like that. Just so hard to find them.

No. They’re not hard to find. I’ve found many women of very good character. Many of them are my friends. One of them decided to accept my proposal of marriage.

They’re not hard to find at all. Many, however, reserve the right to say no. And sometimes? You know what? Sometimes the problem isn’t with them (i.e. they have bad character) but with us.

I still didn’t mean it in the way many of you may have taken it.

In short, you are not a Bad Person, just incompetent in expressing yourself.

I only meant….[sigh]….I just meant something (referring to the heart and love, not people/women/men) very good. NOT LITERALLY TROPHIES or anything of equally realistic value.

…

And love has no value? The heart has no value?

You’re looking for something to show off, you git! Look at me, I’ve got this pretty, submissive girl! My life has meaning because of this woman, this pearl of great price!

Here’s a bit of a hint, though. A lot of women I know, when they spot people like you, they see someone desperately looking for something to fill up that hole that they’re trying to fill. They don’t see the earnestness.

They see the hole. The desperation. The desire to turn actual human beings into toys or tools or objects to conquer.

It doesn’t matter that you consider them a possession that is precious beyond belief. You’ve considered them as possessions! Possessions don't vote. Possessions don't have a say in what goes on in their lives. Possessions don't get to do much. Apart from being adored. At best.

Incidentally? I’ve always found people who attempt to emote excessively rather creepy in textual media.

Either you tone down the emoting, or people get the impression you’re trying to create a mannerisms for a personality they suspect you don’t have.

Thank God for this

[cycads.wordpress.com (from livejournal.com)]

I'm glad you raised the Nice Guy syndrome as an issue. Nice Guys are always so resistant to the idea that they might racist when they say lovely things about Asian women, because they are NICE, and I would only assume relatively good-looking, young, and generally successful with many types of women, so not like those fat blokes in Patpong.

And thanks for revisiting my post. Some annoyances can't RIP, can they?

Re: Thank God for this

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

Guh, I don't think it's only generally good-looking, young, successful with women types. I've seen many guys who aren't successful with women also do the same thing. Although they tend to take a turn for the worse eventually.

From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

I hope other viewers can read this, if so, READ EVERYTHING I, CYCADS, JHA, AND EDIL ( I think that's right) wrote. Here the user is not exactly giving you the proper idea of what I said. READY EVRYTHING we said, not just the parts that will be good enough to support this writers blind view. Sure some of the things this writer has said are true, but what this writer is conveying that relates to myself, IS NOT. Again, read everything in the post. She's reeeeeeally twisting the stuff up. Hey, and Jha tell me what kind of partner/love your looking for? Answer that. I like to get an idea.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

That's the fun part - they DID read everything you wrote.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

Aparrently, they didn't care to understand EVERYTHING.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

Wait, and how do you know they read everything? Are you them? Also, when I said everything, I meant EVERTHING I said in the post.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty confident my LJ friends are all comprehensive readers. If they failed to understand simple concepts like detailed above, they wouldn't be LJ friends.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[divabat.livejournal.com]

I read everything, and you are still a moron.

What makes you think Asian (which part? North, South, East, West?) girls are "pure"? Why this intent on "Spreading your bloodline"? Why describe _anything_ as "trophies"?

And why is it that you have to know whether anyone in this debate is single? Does it matter? Do you think they're just frustrated sods that need a "good man" to loosen them up?

Fuck off, seriously.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

You see. Proves you didn't read everything. I explained the whole "pure" thing. And the trophy thing, I posted about that too. One of the very last things I mentioned actually. And I wanted to know whether they were single or not because if you weren't single, I don't believe you'd say that "a perfect match", meaning a guy and girl that have a good relationship and hopefully get married, is an ILLUSION. Oh, and come on. "f*** off" that's a bit too much. Oh, and uhh.......read.....EVERYTHING!

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[tariq-kamal.livejournal.com]

I'm a guy. And I think you're either incredibly ignorant, or, very possibly, insane.

And the best part? 8 years ago? I suspect I was you.

FREE ADVICE

[tariq-kamal.livejournal.com]

I learned a lesson from hanishoney early on in my relationship with her.

When you've fucked up, you apologize quickly, and try to fix the problem.

You do not spend time beating yourself up in front of the wronged person, or groups or persons you have wronged. You apologize, try and find out what you've done wrong, and then, fix it. Which sometimes means, you know, what? Leaving. And learning.

When you start beating your self up, you're telling the person you've wronged that you're still thinking about how wrong you were -- in short, thinking about yourself.

In short: Stop beating yourself up.

Re: FREE ADVICE

[(Anonymous)]

Beating myself up? Uhh...yeah..??? Well yeah, that's right about apologizing, if you've completed messed up, you apologize and make corrections. To say I'm sorry, is to admit your wrong doing. However, if I didn't then I should not apologize, but can still give an explanation of what may have been misunderstood and why. So I'll only apologize when I mess up. And I have, but of course, seems like everything even my apology won't keep me from being attacked for nothing.

[tenchan.livejournal.com]

Congratulations on your first troll!!! <3!

YEAY! (http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/images/troll.jpg)

*Gives you your cute chocolate foil-wrapped statuette* *love!*

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

YEAY!

And it's CHOCOLATE! <3

Imperfect...

[(Anonymous)]

[Laugh]...You better be careful, that chochlate isn't any good.

Oh, something my teacher mentioned today.....

[(Anonymous)]

We were in class today and we were discussing how a letter was written by a woman to the men of society because women were not treated equally and stuff. The class was getting all excited as a few guys, myself included, and a few girls were trading thoughts on the idea of women to men and men to women. The girls were taking some of what the guys were saying the wrong way. Like when one guy said something about women being women are more sensitive and what not and men should not just be sensitive, a man should be "the man". The girls very much disagreed and with good reason. They took it the wrong way though and I pointed it out to them by explaining that he didn't mean that men should be "the man", he means men should be "a man" meaning he should act like a man and woman should...act like a woman being usually more conscious and less aggressive or whatever. My teacher said this though, "I am a woman, and I know that women can often be much more sensitive and feminine to men in a sense that she makes herself act as a more sensitive and willfully objective to a man, but as a woman, it feels good to be treated like woman. Not saying that he is more than me though." She said she's married to a good husband and he is a very aggressive man, and she loves him. She didn't mean he treats her wrong. I actually tried my best to restate what she said, but I hope you get the idea. And think about this, would you usually expect a woman to come to a guy in attempt to get him, or would you usually expect a man to do it to a woman? I'd usually expect the man to come to the woman. This is a thing that makes him appear more firm I guess or strengthened as a man to the woman. Women like to be seen as a beautiful, physical and/or unphysical. If a woman came to a guy in a such a manner, you'd probably see her as a more of a jump around girl, meaning she probably has been trying too hard to get different guys. She may even seem less mindful of how she chooses her men.

[daybreak25.livejournal.com]

A FREAKING PLUS for you. thank you for this.