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Aug. 25th, 2009 09:44 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jhameiaSo tonight I revisited a post written by the awesome cycads on "foreign bodies as sexual playgrounds". Namely, the fetishization of foreign women by (mostly white) men.
I've said before, one of the reasons why I don't often discuss my own fetishes is that I don't feel I can own them, because I, as an Asian woman, AM a fetish. Most people don't surf for "white girl porn". They're usually just looking for porn. But "Asian" - ah, that's a specialty genre. It creeps me out when I hear guys drool over how cute Asian girls are (and usually, girls), how Eastern brides (whether or not Asian, sometimes European) are so much more submissive than [America]s.
Tonight, I read a(n admittedly old) comment which perfectly exemplifies all the fucking skeeviness about guys searching for foreign brides:
What is this pureness, cycads asks. Surely you mean 'uniqueness'. Oh no, according to this guy,
This virtuous woman, who must be specifically from a different ethnicity and heritage because somehow, that enables her to retain her purity? What the hell does her heritage have to do with it, besides his wanting to spread his genetics further afield (ew yuck!)?
HOLD ON.
....
HOLD ON.
....
OH MY JESUS ALLAH BUDDHA.
Kinda like pulling an angel from the heavens into a land far from their own.
OH, HI, GUY?
We are not your pets and toys.
We do not exist to be shaped and molded by you.
In fact, that is VERY reminiscent of what abusers do to their victims: isolate them from where they belong to, force them to conform to their ideals.
WTF is this? It's so reminiscent of guys who take virgins so they can train said virgins to their own specific tastes. Sure, it makes sense on some level. If you, you know, make the assumption that your partner is not a person who deserves to live and be shaped by her own experiences. If you like your partner to not be her own person when you claim her.
The whole "partner as possession" factor is made of creepiness. I used to think it was hot, but the more confident I become in myself, the more independent I am (and liking it), the scarier this thought is. And it is everywhere.
The worst thing? This is supposed to be ROMANTIC. The whole "average dude wins angel" trope is supposed to be AWESOME and COOL because it shows that WOMEN ARE TOTALLY NOT SUPERFICIAL (no wait, isn't it the OTHER way around???) and that Good Guys Win the Girl!
Sick sad Nice Guy™ Waiting To Happen backpedals:
My response? It is clear you do not come even close to comprehending just how goddamn problematic that framing is. It doesn't matter that you didn't mean that literally. Either way, if that is what you mean, you are filled with Communication Fail.
The company of women is not something to be "earned". By saying that, you frame women as something to be "earned", thus as trophies, as objects to be won. Ergo, as objects.
It is clear you do not even realize you have echoed the sentiments of abusers who isolate their victims, taking the latter from places of comfort for the former's amusement (or sense of control). Or maybe you do realize it and you're just backpedaling.
It is clear you do not even see how you have Other'd cultures different from your own, and women in general.
It is also damned clear you are a Nice Guy-ism™ waiting to happen.
Hell, you know what, I don't even care what you meant.
Attitudes like that are poisonous to both men and women, setting up impossible standards, boxing people into specific codes of behaviour which we could all do without. I am NOT an exotic foreign bride waiting to enter into your life and give you the happiness you oh-so-long-for - neither is ANY OTHER WOMAN, whether Asian or not.
Women aren't trophies, dammit. We're not the fucking Stanley Cup, we're not something you EARN like a fucking salary to keep you alive, we're not something you turn tricks for so you can get our attention. We're people. Stop talking about us like we're not.
*stabbities*
I've said before, one of the reasons why I don't often discuss my own fetishes is that I don't feel I can own them, because I, as an Asian woman, AM a fetish. Most people don't surf for "white girl porn". They're usually just looking for porn. But "Asian" - ah, that's a specialty genre. It creeps me out when I hear guys drool over how cute Asian girls are (and usually, girls), how Eastern brides (whether or not Asian, sometimes European) are so much more submissive than [America]s.
Tonight, I read a(n admittedly old) comment which perfectly exemplifies all the fucking skeeviness about guys searching for foreign brides:
Right now, I have been hoping to find a nice foreign wife, and I am most interested particular groups. I would be greatly satisfied to find an equally special wife of my own ethnicity, but I want her different ethnicity cultural background to in a way help represent a certain pureness that is not easily obtained.
What is this pureness, cycads asks. Surely you mean 'uniqueness'. Oh no, according to this guy,
The [laugh]….”pureness” I was speaking of is actually all part of my intent to find a girl whose character is is very special. A virtuous woman.
This virtuous woman, who must be specifically from a different ethnicity and heritage because somehow, that enables her to retain her purity? What the hell does her heritage have to do with it, besides his wanting to spread his genetics further afield (ew yuck!)?
Her difference and race is an additional attempt to amplify the idea. Kinda like pulling an angel from the heavens into a land far from their own.
HOLD ON.
....
HOLD ON.
....
OH MY JESUS ALLAH BUDDHA.
Kinda like pulling an angel from the heavens into a land far from their own.
OH, HI, GUY?
We are not your pets and toys.
We do not exist to be shaped and molded by you.
In fact, that is VERY reminiscent of what abusers do to their victims: isolate them from where they belong to, force them to conform to their ideals.
WTF is this? It's so reminiscent of guys who take virgins so they can train said virgins to their own specific tastes. Sure, it makes sense on some level. If you, you know, make the assumption that your partner is not a person who deserves to live and be shaped by her own experiences. If you like your partner to not be her own person when you claim her.
The whole "partner as possession" factor is made of creepiness. I used to think it was hot, but the more confident I become in myself, the more independent I am (and liking it), the scarier this thought is. And it is everywhere.
The worst thing? This is supposed to be ROMANTIC. The whole "average dude wins angel" trope is supposed to be AWESOME and COOL because it shows that WOMEN ARE TOTALLY NOT SUPERFICIAL (no wait, isn't it the OTHER way around???) and that Good Guys Win the Girl!
Sick sad Nice Guy™ Waiting To Happen backpedals:
It’s clear you may not have immediately understood that I didn’t mean by force and I didn’t literally mean “pulling”. I simply mean just earning the company of someone by “drawing” their attention or interests to oneself.
My response? It is clear you do not come even close to comprehending just how goddamn problematic that framing is. It doesn't matter that you didn't mean that literally. Either way, if that is what you mean, you are filled with Communication Fail.
The company of women is not something to be "earned". By saying that, you frame women as something to be "earned", thus as trophies, as objects to be won. Ergo, as objects.
It is clear you do not even realize you have echoed the sentiments of abusers who isolate their victims, taking the latter from places of comfort for the former's amusement (or sense of control). Or maybe you do realize it and you're just backpedaling.
It is clear you do not even see how you have Other'd cultures different from your own, and women in general.
It is also damned clear you are a Nice Guy-ism™ waiting to happen.
Hell, you know what, I don't even care what you meant.
Attitudes like that are poisonous to both men and women, setting up impossible standards, boxing people into specific codes of behaviour which we could all do without. I am NOT an exotic foreign bride waiting to enter into your life and give you the happiness you oh-so-long-for - neither is ANY OTHER WOMAN, whether Asian or not.
Women aren't trophies, dammit. We're not the fucking Stanley Cup, we're not something you EARN like a fucking salary to keep you alive, we're not something you turn tricks for so you can get our attention. We're people. Stop talking about us like we're not.
*stabbities*
Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-06 03:00 pm (UTC)Proof#9:And I asked about your (fantasyecho) availability status for the purpose of just to say something negative or insult her. I asked about it because it has a significant effect on her views along with the--I'm assuming--belief that I was a white guy (particularly American). I said, "...I'm not assuming that Jha is hurt. I KNOW she is of the side that has been hurt, by betrayal. I'm not saying that all of you or all those women were each betrayed by some guy. I'm saying the entirety of the women has been betrayed in the sense that a significant amount of men, who promised good, betrayed a significant amount of women, thus creating a great mistrust." Which is why Fantasyecho "came at me sideways" in the first place.
Proof#10:I know Cycad's blog was not about me, I explained why and how the conversation went in that direction though, on her blog."The only reason I’m speaking of anything related to myself in particular, is because I gave my opinion and view on your post. Then after that questions were asked and things were pointed out that seem to be wrong with what I said. I again responded with my view and considering that of others. Everything I’ve been getting now is related to everything I said and if those things directed to me are specifically questioning of what I’M resenting, then I’ll try to address them again while still considering others. The whole thing extended to Jha’s blog which led to the idea of the man:woman relationship, which I then elaborated on in a general manner, not just specifically myself, UNLESS something said was directly questioning or contradicting of my personal self. You’re right, this blog isn’t about me and my own relationship goals. It’s about how men (i believe mainly American) seek ASIAN women, and the purpose of those men. You know that not every man of any nationality would have heartless purposes. I responded to your post to point that out too. Just like when a girl says around me “MEN ARE DOGS”, I’d laugh a bit, and say “Hey. Not all men.”
Proof#11:I said--expressed--the whole "Oh no D: Did I really come off that way?" Hint, the trophy thing. Since no explanation could support it, and IT DID COME OFF to be offensive and objectifying to women. So I apologized for that. "Sorry about that misunderstanding and that with the :S trophy idea. Incorrect choice of wording."
Proof#12: Fatasyecho made it very hard for me to state my argument--not on purpose--but because she used no real proof. I'm not saying that you should deny the things she said for this reason, but I am saying that she left many openings for me to point to. I can say my argument and use proof to support it, but I may not have addressed exactly what she's referring to or may not have addressed everything. She actually made claims."Proof is the result or effect of evidence; the establishment or denial of a fact by evidence." and "To claim is too state to be true, especially when open to question". We all know the relationship between proof and claims is determined by the evidence.
(Not end of argument in full. I'm posting the rest next. It exceeded the limit.)