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Aug. 25th, 2009 09:44 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jhameiaSo tonight I revisited a post written by the awesome cycads on "foreign bodies as sexual playgrounds". Namely, the fetishization of foreign women by (mostly white) men.
I've said before, one of the reasons why I don't often discuss my own fetishes is that I don't feel I can own them, because I, as an Asian woman, AM a fetish. Most people don't surf for "white girl porn". They're usually just looking for porn. But "Asian" - ah, that's a specialty genre. It creeps me out when I hear guys drool over how cute Asian girls are (and usually, girls), how Eastern brides (whether or not Asian, sometimes European) are so much more submissive than [America]s.
Tonight, I read a(n admittedly old) comment which perfectly exemplifies all the fucking skeeviness about guys searching for foreign brides:
What is this pureness, cycads asks. Surely you mean 'uniqueness'. Oh no, according to this guy,
This virtuous woman, who must be specifically from a different ethnicity and heritage because somehow, that enables her to retain her purity? What the hell does her heritage have to do with it, besides his wanting to spread his genetics further afield (ew yuck!)?
HOLD ON.
....
HOLD ON.
....
OH MY JESUS ALLAH BUDDHA.
Kinda like pulling an angel from the heavens into a land far from their own.
OH, HI, GUY?
We are not your pets and toys.
We do not exist to be shaped and molded by you.
In fact, that is VERY reminiscent of what abusers do to their victims: isolate them from where they belong to, force them to conform to their ideals.
WTF is this? It's so reminiscent of guys who take virgins so they can train said virgins to their own specific tastes. Sure, it makes sense on some level. If you, you know, make the assumption that your partner is not a person who deserves to live and be shaped by her own experiences. If you like your partner to not be her own person when you claim her.
The whole "partner as possession" factor is made of creepiness. I used to think it was hot, but the more confident I become in myself, the more independent I am (and liking it), the scarier this thought is. And it is everywhere.
The worst thing? This is supposed to be ROMANTIC. The whole "average dude wins angel" trope is supposed to be AWESOME and COOL because it shows that WOMEN ARE TOTALLY NOT SUPERFICIAL (no wait, isn't it the OTHER way around???) and that Good Guys Win the Girl!
Sick sad Nice Guy™ Waiting To Happen backpedals:
My response? It is clear you do not come even close to comprehending just how goddamn problematic that framing is. It doesn't matter that you didn't mean that literally. Either way, if that is what you mean, you are filled with Communication Fail.
The company of women is not something to be "earned". By saying that, you frame women as something to be "earned", thus as trophies, as objects to be won. Ergo, as objects.
It is clear you do not even realize you have echoed the sentiments of abusers who isolate their victims, taking the latter from places of comfort for the former's amusement (or sense of control). Or maybe you do realize it and you're just backpedaling.
It is clear you do not even see how you have Other'd cultures different from your own, and women in general.
It is also damned clear you are a Nice Guy-ism™ waiting to happen.
Hell, you know what, I don't even care what you meant.
Attitudes like that are poisonous to both men and women, setting up impossible standards, boxing people into specific codes of behaviour which we could all do without. I am NOT an exotic foreign bride waiting to enter into your life and give you the happiness you oh-so-long-for - neither is ANY OTHER WOMAN, whether Asian or not.
Women aren't trophies, dammit. We're not the fucking Stanley Cup, we're not something you EARN like a fucking salary to keep you alive, we're not something you turn tricks for so you can get our attention. We're people. Stop talking about us like we're not.
*stabbities*
I've said before, one of the reasons why I don't often discuss my own fetishes is that I don't feel I can own them, because I, as an Asian woman, AM a fetish. Most people don't surf for "white girl porn". They're usually just looking for porn. But "Asian" - ah, that's a specialty genre. It creeps me out when I hear guys drool over how cute Asian girls are (and usually, girls), how Eastern brides (whether or not Asian, sometimes European) are so much more submissive than [America]s.
Tonight, I read a(n admittedly old) comment which perfectly exemplifies all the fucking skeeviness about guys searching for foreign brides:
Right now, I have been hoping to find a nice foreign wife, and I am most interested particular groups. I would be greatly satisfied to find an equally special wife of my own ethnicity, but I want her different ethnicity cultural background to in a way help represent a certain pureness that is not easily obtained.
What is this pureness, cycads asks. Surely you mean 'uniqueness'. Oh no, according to this guy,
The [laugh]….”pureness” I was speaking of is actually all part of my intent to find a girl whose character is is very special. A virtuous woman.
This virtuous woman, who must be specifically from a different ethnicity and heritage because somehow, that enables her to retain her purity? What the hell does her heritage have to do with it, besides his wanting to spread his genetics further afield (ew yuck!)?
Her difference and race is an additional attempt to amplify the idea. Kinda like pulling an angel from the heavens into a land far from their own.
HOLD ON.
....
HOLD ON.
....
OH MY JESUS ALLAH BUDDHA.
Kinda like pulling an angel from the heavens into a land far from their own.
OH, HI, GUY?
We are not your pets and toys.
We do not exist to be shaped and molded by you.
In fact, that is VERY reminiscent of what abusers do to their victims: isolate them from where they belong to, force them to conform to their ideals.
WTF is this? It's so reminiscent of guys who take virgins so they can train said virgins to their own specific tastes. Sure, it makes sense on some level. If you, you know, make the assumption that your partner is not a person who deserves to live and be shaped by her own experiences. If you like your partner to not be her own person when you claim her.
The whole "partner as possession" factor is made of creepiness. I used to think it was hot, but the more confident I become in myself, the more independent I am (and liking it), the scarier this thought is. And it is everywhere.
The worst thing? This is supposed to be ROMANTIC. The whole "average dude wins angel" trope is supposed to be AWESOME and COOL because it shows that WOMEN ARE TOTALLY NOT SUPERFICIAL (no wait, isn't it the OTHER way around???) and that Good Guys Win the Girl!
Sick sad Nice Guy™ Waiting To Happen backpedals:
It’s clear you may not have immediately understood that I didn’t mean by force and I didn’t literally mean “pulling”. I simply mean just earning the company of someone by “drawing” their attention or interests to oneself.
My response? It is clear you do not come even close to comprehending just how goddamn problematic that framing is. It doesn't matter that you didn't mean that literally. Either way, if that is what you mean, you are filled with Communication Fail.
The company of women is not something to be "earned". By saying that, you frame women as something to be "earned", thus as trophies, as objects to be won. Ergo, as objects.
It is clear you do not even realize you have echoed the sentiments of abusers who isolate their victims, taking the latter from places of comfort for the former's amusement (or sense of control). Or maybe you do realize it and you're just backpedaling.
It is clear you do not even see how you have Other'd cultures different from your own, and women in general.
It is also damned clear you are a Nice Guy-ism™ waiting to happen.
Hell, you know what, I don't even care what you meant.
Attitudes like that are poisonous to both men and women, setting up impossible standards, boxing people into specific codes of behaviour which we could all do without. I am NOT an exotic foreign bride waiting to enter into your life and give you the happiness you oh-so-long-for - neither is ANY OTHER WOMAN, whether Asian or not.
Women aren't trophies, dammit. We're not the fucking Stanley Cup, we're not something you EARN like a fucking salary to keep you alive, we're not something you turn tricks for so you can get our attention. We're people. Stop talking about us like we're not.
*stabbities*
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Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-05 02:15 am (UTC)Once you get tired of roasting, though, could always try screening anonymous comments by default, and then not letting him out of the moderation queue.
Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-05 02:39 am (UTC)I guess I just like displaying stupid.
Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-05 08:55 pm (UTC)Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-05 09:50 pm (UTC)Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-05 10:46 pm (UTC)Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-05 11:02 pm (UTC)http://alive.tom.com/abetwabe/my-friends.html?selection_all
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/averill-davenport/12/22/343
http://www.facebook.com/people/Averill-Davenport/1217179562
Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-06 01:00 am (UTC)(frozen) Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-06 01:03 am (UTC)Have the guts to say "suicide" if you're going to dare bring up mental health. Though I'm hardly unique in that respect. For all I know, you just picked random blogs and claim you read them. If you did, you'll notice very recent posts that reiterate things I've said here.
(frozen) Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-06 01:08 am (UTC)Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-05 10:51 pm (UTC)Argument: Averill has said Nice Guy™-isms which are problematic, which indicates that he's in severe need of education on how to talk about and to women in a way that does not skeeve us out, because he's coming off as a Nice Guy™, which is a guy who is nice purely for the purpose of winning a woman. A Nice Guy™ is nice on the surface, but upon inspection of his language, behaviour, manners, is demonstrably not nice. (Or maybe he's genuinely nice on the inside, we'll give him that, but he's being nice in a way that's all wrong, reinforcing stereotypes and displaying clinginess. Which is just as bad, in my books. Who knows, maybe some other girl likes it, but not these Asian women here!)
Proof: He uses objectifying language to express his desire for them.
Lesson: Be wary of the language you use. If you say shit wrong, we will call you out on it.
Proof: When called on his objectifying language, he backpedals, says he didn't mean to.
Lesson: Intention doesn't always matter. If you have offended, you have offended. There are occasionally times when your offensiveness can be mitigated by your intent, but when it comes to racist, sexist bullshit, intent doesn't matter. Anything you said will have consequences, and you will be held accountable for them.
Proof: When further confronted on his ideals, scenarios and metaphors, which reinforce harmful stereotypes, he gets defensive, saying that his heteronormative examples were narrow and focused upon the nature of men and women in romantic relationships.
Lesson: Beware your metaphors, just as you should watch your language. The first ones you pick are very clear on the kind of person you are.
Proof: He is deeply attracted to women of certain groups because of some love for language and culture, wants to share his language and culture with his woman (never mind that maybe she already can speak his language and is likely forced to live in his culture anyway), and wants to traipse through her language and culture, as if marriage were some form of cultural tourism.
Lesson: You shouldn't be focusing on women of specific groups in your search for relationships.
Proof: He is attracted to women based on whether she is Asian, or Brazillian is also good, or "OMG there is this cute Portuguese girl....!"
Lesson: Nothing squicks a woman out more than a guy crowing over how he prefers Asian women, or Brazilian, especially if said woman is Asian and aware of race politics.
Proof: He then backs up and insists that her face doesn't matter, her nationality doesn't matter, but her heart matters!
Lesson: We may give this a pass if this is just all you're attracted to, but if you're going to go about the whole "I will love her for her heart" malarky, then give the "I prefer a foreign bride" thing a rest.
Proof: Instead of just packing up and apologizing for having offended not just one Asian woman, but two (cycads), three (Edel), four(
Lesson: Learn to STFU.
Proof: He also demands to know their availability status as if it were relevant, as if we would have responded any differently had we been otherwise.
Lesson: Demanding to know irrelevant personal details is rude and disrespectful.
Proof: He insists on responding to posts that aren't about him, and making it all about him.
Lesson: If it ain't about you, don't make it about you. This post was not originally about you, per se, but about the language you used. If it was about you personally, I think I could have come up with something deeply personal to say you, rather than fisk specific, superficial things you said. Any guy can say those things. Normal mature guys, though, usually go "Oh no D: Did I really come off that way?" as opposed to you, who came in here shrieking, "YOU EVIL EVIL PERSON TRYING TO MALIGN MY GOOD NAME YOU ARE WRONG!"
But I'll hold you to this: I'll give one last response and if you don't completely agree, then you HAVE proven myself liar.
Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-06 02:53 pm (UTC)Ok, I'm not an American white guy, and so my ethnic status is not the same as that of white men in the sense of Gareth's post. I'm a black guy. African American or whatever. I believe that many of the people that read my messages took me for a white guy. I'm not speaking against white men though, and I don't mean to sound belittling of myself or any other race either. However, I am not saying that that is the only thing that affected the topic. It did affect it in some manner though. Ok, now responding to Fantasyecho.
Argument: (re-read Fantasyecho's first argument sentence)I'm not a Nice Guy™ in the sense she is referring to. I AM a nice guy though. I do not do what I do and am not who I am solely for the purpose of winning a woman, especially for unfitting and selfish reasons. I am who I am and do what I do as an example to others for good. As a male, a single male, I do seek a woman. I'm a nice guy on the inside and out. However, that can only be claimed until my actions and personality are observed in person. I respect women and do not see them as inferior. Oh and that Jha didn't exactly use proof in her argument. She made claims. I understand that it may be a tedious task to look for exact statements, but she could have at least used one, this makes it a lot harder for me since I can't address those things all at once. :S here I go though.
[deep breath].......[exhales]....[smile]....
Proof/Truth from me/Claim to you#1: I've been rejected once, and yeah, I was disappointed. I didn't stay friends with the girl just to ultimately be the "best guy" in the end. I've said to someone that I'm greedy with your happiness,because the girl said something about another guy doing something for her. I joked making "I think I'm gonna be sick" gestures. She responded cheerfully, but I followed behind what she said to admit to her that I was greedy of her happiness, and I am wrong for that, because anyone is able to make you happy.
Proof#2:
I did say some things that can be fairly seen as not nice, but I said what I did only after A NUMBER Of not so nice responses to my simple messages (non-offensive messages). Here's Jha's first response to me:
"It is clear you do not come even close to comprehending just how goddamn problematic that framing is.It doesn’t matter that you didn’t mean that literally. Either way, if that is what you mean, you are filled with Communication Fail. (And an English major, I am ashamed.)"
This doesn't sound exactly welcoming or nice. I'll continue:
"It is clear you do not even realize you have echoed the sentiments of abusers who isolate their victims, taking the latter from places of comfort for the former’s amusement (or sense of control). Or maybe you do realize it and you’re just backpedaling."
"It is also damned clear you are a Nice Guy-ism™ waiting to happen."(Nice Guy-ism Link here for example, http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/12/05/xkcd-explains-nice-guys-in-comic-format/ )
"Sorry, cycads, for feeding the troll."
Now, after she said that I said "[Laughing]………………………Very interesting. Wow, you upset?" Now, that's the most I could come up with for my first direct offense. Not exactly offensive, but hey, I guess that's just an opinion. You can read the rest of the text in that message by referring back to Cycad's post. If you want to find the things I said that seemed or were direct offenses from me, then do so and notice what was said to me and HOW it was said before I made the message.
Proof#3:"I used thing on purpose because I want to acknowledge that we are of one of the beautiful things He has created. I said "me" because yes, whatever God made and put here, He made for us all (men and women). I said to someone also, reusing this same thing "Glorious thing created by God and given to me from Him" and said that the same is for men to women as well."
(Not end of argument in full. I'm posting the rest next. It exceeded the limit.)
Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-06 02:58 pm (UTC)Proof#5:I'm not deeply attracted to women of certain groups because of some love for language and culture, want to share my language and culture with my wife. "I just meant that the girl will be very different, her race and her character, from what I am commonly accustomed to find. Again, I said that her race will just help amplify the idea of her being different." “I will have to be just as equally valuable as she is, whatever ethnicity she may be. I’m not selfish in that manner. I know that if I want a girl of a certain character, then I will need to be able to give her the same and hopefully, for her, much much more.”
Proof#6: I value the girl for her heart, but still have a preference for appearance in girls just like every man. "I did indicate that I’d be willing to marry a girl of any other nationality/race as long as she is pretty TO ME. She might be ugly to other people, that’s fine with me. [laugh]….But yeah, if I’m with her, it’s because she is beautiful period. She may not physically pretty to everyone else, but her spirit will be for sure." She's pretty to me physically, but may be ugly to everyone else physically. Her spirit would be beautiful to me AND everyone else, however.
Proof#7: X( I'm not attracted to women based simply on whether she is Asian, Brazilian, or any other different ethnicity. I explained this saying, "Again I mentioned my preference for the appearance of women “[response to last received message] Actually, it is all those things, well, except maybe for the uhh….”petite” form. Hehe. I have some other preferences. Hihi. It’s not just Asian girls though. I’d love to hear the accent of that significant other, and also love to share the “embarrassment”–if you will–of trying to learn and possibly use the other person’s language…….Sure not everything about the other’s culture may fascinate or please me, but I’d like to try some of those things out anyway. Well, maybe not all the foods, and I can’t dance so, yeah, some restrictions. [laugh]…”
(Not end of argument in full. I'm posting the rest next. It exceeded the limit.)
Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-06 03:00 pm (UTC)Proof#9:And I asked about your (fantasyecho) availability status for the purpose of just to say something negative or insult her. I asked about it because it has a significant effect on her views along with the--I'm assuming--belief that I was a white guy (particularly American). I said, "...I'm not assuming that Jha is hurt. I KNOW she is of the side that has been hurt, by betrayal. I'm not saying that all of you or all those women were each betrayed by some guy. I'm saying the entirety of the women has been betrayed in the sense that a significant amount of men, who promised good, betrayed a significant amount of women, thus creating a great mistrust." Which is why Fantasyecho "came at me sideways" in the first place.
Proof#10:I know Cycad's blog was not about me, I explained why and how the conversation went in that direction though, on her blog."The only reason I’m speaking of anything related to myself in particular, is because I gave my opinion and view on your post. Then after that questions were asked and things were pointed out that seem to be wrong with what I said. I again responded with my view and considering that of others. Everything I’ve been getting now is related to everything I said and if those things directed to me are specifically questioning of what I’M resenting, then I’ll try to address them again while still considering others. The whole thing extended to Jha’s blog which led to the idea of the man:woman relationship, which I then elaborated on in a general manner, not just specifically myself, UNLESS something said was directly questioning or contradicting of my personal self. You’re right, this blog isn’t about me and my own relationship goals. It’s about how men (i believe mainly American) seek ASIAN women, and the purpose of those men. You know that not every man of any nationality would have heartless purposes. I responded to your post to point that out too. Just like when a girl says around me “MEN ARE DOGS”, I’d laugh a bit, and say “Hey. Not all men.”
Proof#11:I said--expressed--the whole "Oh no D: Did I really come off that way?" Hint, the trophy thing. Since no explanation could support it, and IT DID COME OFF to be offensive and objectifying to women. So I apologized for that. "Sorry about that misunderstanding and that with the :S trophy idea. Incorrect choice of wording."
Proof#12: Fatasyecho made it very hard for me to state my argument--not on purpose--but because she used no real proof. I'm not saying that you should deny the things she said for this reason, but I am saying that she left many openings for me to point to. I can say my argument and use proof to support it, but I may not have addressed exactly what she's referring to or may not have addressed everything. She actually made claims."Proof is the result or effect of evidence; the establishment or denial of a fact by evidence." and "To claim is too state to be true, especially when open to question". We all know the relationship between proof and claims is determined by the evidence.
(Not end of argument in full. I'm posting the rest next. It exceeded the limit.)
(frozen) Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-06 03:06 pm (UTC)(frozen) Re: Oh man! Awesome! I never get to use this icon!
Date: 2009-09-06 03:22 pm (UTC)When I first posted this response to what you said, it was exactly that: a response to what you said. It had little reflection on what you are, deep down inside. We were never interested in that. We made assumptions, and instead of asking yourself, "do I really come off that way?" you felt the need to barge in and demand that bunch of internet strangers acknowledge how good and nice and noble you think you are.
So no. I don't agree with the entirety of your argument (which, on this post, has been not much more than U R WRONG). You have failed to convince me that what you said, which could have been said by anybody, is respectful, thoughtful and acknowledging of our views and experiences as women, and you have failed to convince my comrades, even pissing them off and being condescending to them from the start. You treat us with disrespect, swan around assuming you are right and a special snowflake, when in fact, you're just another guy who thinks his opinion is worth all that much. Your opinion is valid insofar as it applies to you, but it can never be our truth.
I will hold you to your word: now that I have disagreed with you, you will not post again. Any further posts after this, any further attempts to justify your presence here, any further responses in defending your opinion here - they will be deleted.
Good luck.