(no subject)

[jhameia]

So tonight I revisited a post written by the awesome cycads on "foreign bodies as sexual playgrounds". Namely, the fetishization of foreign women by (mostly white) men.

I've said before, one of the reasons why I don't often discuss my own fetishes is that I don't feel I can own them, because I, as an Asian woman, AM a fetish. Most people don't surf for "white girl porn". They're usually just looking for porn. But "Asian" - ah, that's a specialty genre. It creeps me out when I hear guys drool over how cute Asian girls are (and usually, girls), how Eastern brides (whether or not Asian, sometimes European) are so much more submissive than [America]s.

Tonight, I read a(n admittedly old) comment which perfectly exemplifies all the fucking skeeviness about guys searching for foreign brides:

Right now, I have been hoping to find a nice foreign wife, and I am most interested particular groups. I would be greatly satisfied to find an equally special wife of my own ethnicity, but I want her different ethnicity cultural background to in a way help represent a certain pureness that is not easily obtained.

What is this pureness, cycads asks. Surely you mean 'uniqueness'. Oh no, according to this guy,

The [laugh]….”pureness” I was speaking of is actually all part of my intent to find a girl whose character is is very special. A virtuous woman.

This virtuous woman, who must be specifically from a different ethnicity and heritage because somehow, that enables her to retain her purity? What the hell does her heritage have to do with it, besides his wanting to spread his genetics further afield (ew yuck!)?

Her difference and race is an additional attempt to amplify the idea. Kinda like pulling an angel from the heavens into a land far from their own.

HOLD ON.

....

HOLD ON.

....

OH MY JESUS ALLAH BUDDHA.

Kinda like pulling an angel from the heavens into a land far from their own.

OH, HI, GUY?

We are not your pets and toys.

We do not exist to be shaped and molded by you.

In fact, that is VERY reminiscent of what abusers do to their victims: isolate them from where they belong to, force them to conform to their ideals.

WTF is this? It's so reminiscent of guys who take virgins so they can train said virgins to their own specific tastes. Sure, it makes sense on some level. If you, you know, make the assumption that your partner is not a person who deserves to live and be shaped by her own experiences. If you like your partner to not be her own person when you claim her.

The whole "partner as possession" factor is made of creepiness. I used to think it was hot, but the more confident I become in myself, the more independent I am (and liking it), the scarier this thought is. And it is everywhere.

The worst thing? This is supposed to be ROMANTIC. The whole "average dude wins angel" trope is supposed to be AWESOME and COOL because it shows that WOMEN ARE TOTALLY NOT SUPERFICIAL (no wait, isn't it the OTHER way around???) and that Good Guys Win the Girl!

Sick sad Nice Guy™ Waiting To Happen backpedals:

It’s clear you may not have immediately understood that I didn’t mean by force and I didn’t literally mean “pulling”. I simply mean just earning the company of someone by “drawing” their attention or interests to oneself.

My response? It is clear you do not come even close to comprehending just how goddamn problematic that framing is. It doesn't matter that you didn't mean that literally. Either way, if that is what you mean, you are filled with Communication Fail.

The company of women is not something to be "earned". By saying that, you frame women as something to be "earned", thus as trophies, as objects to be won. Ergo, as objects.

It is clear you do not even realize you have echoed the sentiments of abusers who isolate their victims, taking the latter from places of comfort for the former's amusement (or sense of control). Or maybe you do realize it and you're just backpedaling.

It is clear you do not even see how you have Other'd cultures different from your own, and women in general.

It is also damned clear you are a Nice Guy-ism™ waiting to happen.

Hell, you know what, I don't even care what you meant.

Attitudes like that are poisonous to both men and women, setting up impossible standards, boxing people into specific codes of behaviour which we could all do without. I am NOT an exotic foreign bride waiting to enter into your life and give you the happiness you oh-so-long-for - neither is ANY OTHER WOMAN, whether Asian or not.

Women aren't trophies, dammit. We're not the fucking Stanley Cup, we're not something you EARN like a fucking salary to keep you alive, we're not something you turn tricks for so you can get our attention. We're people. Stop talking about us like we're not.

*stabbities*

Comments

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

You explained the pure thing. It was still skeevy. You mentioned the trophy thing. It was still skeevy (see zibblsnrt's post above).

Just because a guy and a girl have a good relationship and hopefully get married, doesn't make it a PERFECT MATCH. There will always be a flaw. When you interrupted that married couple's argument, you basically interrupted the effort they were making to communicate their problems with each other. Saying "Oh, I love you, kisses!" isn't helpful at all - it's a band-aid solution at best, and yes, it will lead to the illusion that good marriages have no conflict.

You still suffer from a communication fail.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

[laugh]..."communication fail". No, I don't mean the marriage is without conflict or disagreement. That's perfectly healthy as long as they both straighten their differences out the correct way. [Laugh]....Yeah, no good--PERFECT--relationship is without disagreement. Or is there?......[laugh]...Well, I don't think I'll find one of those.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

1) If it's with conflict, then it's not perfect, now is it? Hence why there is no such thing as a perfect match.

2) "Straighten their differences the correct way"? There's a correct way now? There's a good way, which is the way which works, and a bad way, which is the way which breeds resentment, but there is no such thing as a "correct" way to resolve differences. Different people have different approaches.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

!!!!?????!!!!! 1.I was correcting Jha's or Edel, I can't remember, saying that there is no perfect match and barking at me more. I explained that. Come on, you're slacking on me Fantasyecho.

2. Correct answer IS GOOD right? Good answer, resulting in good outcome IS A CORRECT ANSWER RIGHT? Incorrect is BAD right? BAD IS INCORRECT RIGHT? Of course Fantasyecho. Every group of people has what may be a different way to solve something. The solution, if it is a healthy CORRECT solution, meaning that it results in good outcomes even later, IS CORRECT. Example: Wife fusses, husband hits her. The hitting is a solution, BUT IT IS NOT THE CORRECT SOLUTION to stop her from being upset. If he takes the time to listen to her without fussing back too, then makes the necessary changes to make her feel better and not fuss, AND makes him happy to know he has made his wife happy, then that is the CORRECT SOLUTION, THE GOOD SOLUTION. And please, I hope no one tries to attack me just because I used this analogy to explain this. X(

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

1) What planet do you live on? Are you aware or are you not aware of the common trope floating around that perfect relationship = sparkles and roses and happily ever afters?

2) Again, what planet do you live on? What is correct for one person is, even by your definition, not correct for others!

3) ONCE AGAIN, WHAT PLANET DO YOU LIVE ON? You know that's a fucking horrible analogy - never mind the high rates of domestic violence and marital rape coded within that image. You know, we can tell that you know, and you still use it?

I'm going to trust that you don't even fucking realize what it means to trigger someone and that you are honest-to-goodness just ridiculously, unbelievably stupidly ignorant and naive, but seriously? Lacking imagination much?

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

Ok..........I give up. I'll just go do what many or most guys do, just be no good, impress girl who is more likely to take a selfish evil jerk. Then get her pregnant, then leave. Or I'll just be all that bad stuff, get married and treat her like an inferior thing. Treat her like a breeder and don't give a heck about her feelings and run around with other women even with her knowing it and still being loyal to me as a WIFE. I should be ready to disrespect my kids and everyone else. I should just forget the whole idea about good, and just live deep deep deep within the bosom of vice and selfishly indulge myself for my own lust and satisfaction. I'll just agree with all the women attacking me and just say it's just not possible to get any good and it's just a moron of me to think there could be. That I'm just scum of the earth. I should stop trying to explain myself and just take all punishment for everything and nothing I have done. I'm nothing, and I care for nothing, and everyone who believes in good is foolish, and everyone who tries to promote good or incorrectly pronounces good, is a stupid foolish person. If I do not do all this, and do completely the opposite then you, Fantasyecho, are stupid. I can bet you, Jha and Edil (probably misspelled) are single ladies. I BET you! [laugh]....I wonder if you'll be offended by that stupid thing. I wonder.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

And there he goes, flouncing like the cohorts of Nice Guys™ before him who, too, claimed to be respectful of women, until they disagreed and told him how women really want to be treated. At which point he, like the cohorts before him, decides to stamp his foot like a child, whine about how he's unlovable in order to wring some pity, rather than asking questions.

Plus, I'm not the one here who's bothered by singledom. You apparently are, since you keep going on and on about it. Single, partnered, what does it matter? Our opinions would still be the same.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, uhm not bothered by singledom. I mean single and just have found enough reasons not to let a guy approach her just because of what she hears or read. And no, if you weren't single, though I know you are (let me know if I'm wrong), then you wouldn't....what's that expression I heard someone use.......Ah! "come at me sideways". That's why I asked Jha in the first place about it. And there you go again, now you're using my uhh...I don't know what to call it, I'm sure there's a word for it, but yeah, you're using what I was saying to make it REALLY seem like I'm just this Nice Guys™ thing you keep referring to. Sorry, even in what I wrote I let you know there is another side of the coin which you are not gonna be ready to see. You know, where I said that if I don't do or am those things, then you're stupid. [Laugh]...I'm sure you have a pretty good idea of the possibility of me doing those things given the things I have said throughout this post.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

Clearly you have no interest in hearing what a Single Woman™ has to say, because clearly, she has nothing of worth to listen to - she's single and embittered! How could she POSIBBLY hope to understand where your poor beleaguered self is coming from?

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[divabat.livejournal.com]

You haven't realised Jha and fantasyecho are the same person? ;)

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[divabat.livejournal.com]

http://xkcd.com/513/

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

[Laughing]...........Very funny Divabat. Very good though, but sorry, I'm not like that. I am a patient guy and if someone is not for me particularly my female good freind, then so be it. Yeah, that comic thing is a pretty good illustration of the things that tend to happen in the movies, which I don't like to happen. The "good guy" gradually forces his way in. No. I'll be a good loyal friend to my friend. Actually, there is one girl, who is a friend of mine who I expressed to that I really liked her, and that there is only one person made for me on this earth. If she was mine (gf) then it would be a wonderful thing. However, if she turns down my hand, then she is not mine.PERIOD. She is still my very beloved friend and she knows this, but I don't persue her hand to be mine.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[tariq-kamal.livejournal.com]

...

Good god now I know how my female friends felt.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

If I do not do all this, and do completely the opposite then you, Fantasyecho, are stupid.

Wow. Such respect for women and their opinions.

I can bet you, Jha and Edil (probably misspelled) are single ladies. I BET you! [laugh]

You bet, huh? People's lives are scorecards for you to give yourself points over. Right. Such respect.

BTW, if a single Asian woman is what you're after, and a horde of Asian women you'd like to believe are single are getting royally cheesed off at what you say, the way you say it and the skeevy underlying desires it reveals, it might be a good idea to stop for a little self-examination.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

[sigh]...I have done this and continue to do this. I have said that I do this to make sure my feelings aren't of poor nature, and I mentioned that to cycads in her blog. I explained also why it is important to know whether or not they're single, not just a joke. And about the stupid thing, well, you'll be okay. I had to point out that you want me to be a monster--a troll [laugh]...--just to add to Jha's blind evaluation and prove something that is not true for all men or men who want a foreign wife. So for you to do that, it's stupid.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

prove something that is not true for all men or men who want a foreign wife.
It may not be true of all men who want a foreign wife but it is certainly true of you.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[fionnabhair-ii.livejournal.com]

How about "Wife files for divorce because she is not getting respect in her relationship" as a solution?

I'm getting some hardcore creepy vibes from this one, that's for sure.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

Uhhh, DUH!That's a solution and it's a good one if it is the best way to solve the problem. And what's with the whole "hardcore creepy vibes"? I don't really get it. :(

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

I guess you're still in denial of the fact that you do come off as a very creepy dude.

The proper, more productive response is not "you oversensitive women!!!!" The more productive response is, "I'm sorry, what did I say?"

Which I've been answering anyway, and if you'd just bothered to read what I said rather than keep defending yourself, you might figure out more easily what's with the hardcore creepy vibes we've been getting from you.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I responded more like "[smile]....NOooooo, not like that. [smile]... Let me explain what I mean." I don't see how it is creepy for someone to their best to speak favorably, but are misunderstood to be speaking unfavorably. Then even after explaining it properly, the listeners still keep focusing on what was said at first and still try to find every single POSSIBLE error JUST to attack with great force.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

Again: Not. Interested. In. Your Explanation. Not when you've shown yourself to be scared of possible other interpretations of your behaviour.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[divabat.livejournal.com]

For an English major you sure do have an appaling command of the language.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I'm just in the second level. [laugh]...That's not my excuse. I have to say I've been getting a bit carried away in these posts. :P So yeah.

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[divabat.livejournal.com]

I know high-schoolers and people for whom English is their second language who have better skills than you. Either your degree is failing you or you're totally lost in your degree. Semiotics mean anything to you?

Re: From the moron who wrote the stuff.....

[(Anonymous)]

Uhm, no. Hey, are you trying to just insult me or express genuine concern? [laugh]...