Twitter Conversation
Dec. 8th, 2009 02:22 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jhameiaInspired by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
katherineokelly's comments in my latest Linkfest, I threw a question out to the Twitterati:
what if, instead of using the term "white", we used the term "European American"?
(ETA: Since tweeting this, 4 people have re-tweeted it, including @vonslatt, THE Jake von Slatt of the Steampunk Workshop.)
The responses are various. I will introduce folks as we go along. Maybe.
castusalbuscor @jhameia Ohh but that would devalue the "white american citizen", I am up for it!
Inventrix @jhameia What's wrong with Caucasian?
(I don't really know who this is. S/he started following me one day after I made a Girl Genius tweet.)
jhameia @Inventrix "Caucasian" could apply to an European source-lander, who don't really consider themselves "white".
jhameia @Inventrix also, "European American" indicates an emphasis that this individual is American, with European origins.
Lthemick @jhameia Won't 'European American' undermine the racial identities of Irish-German-Dutch-Italian-French-Polish Americans?
(I don't know who this is either. He introduced himself as Liam, and he found me through blogs.)
jhameia .@Lthemick I don't know. What do the Irish-German-Dutch-Italian-French-Polish Americans think?
jhameia @Lthemick Also, what would the English-Japanese-Native-Polish-Spanish-French think?
vonslatt @jhameia I'm a tri-euromix myself so European American works well for me.
jhameia .@Lthemick what's wrong with qualifiers?
Lthemick @jhameia This Irish-German-English-Welsh-Scot thinks it would be great if we didn't need any qualifiers.
jhameia i identify as Malaysian-Chinese because it's important for me to acknowledge my ethnicity / point of origin as well as nationality.
Lthemick @jhameia I think they carry the same risk as any other label: people make assumptions based on the label rather than the individual.
jhameia .@Lthemick names are important; being able to name ourselves can be empowering. it's not a case of being labeled and judged by someone else
jhameia .@Lthemick as it is acknowledging our histories and cultures through what we call ourselves. it's not for other people, but for ourselves
Lthemick @jhameia I agree: Names are important. But often there's a dichotomy between what a name means to us, and what others make of it.
Lthemick @jhameia It's that disconnect I find regrettable.
jhameia @Lthemick at some point we have to learn when other people's opinions matter, and when they don't. :P
jhameia .@Lthemick I'm already judged by my appearance, but what i call myself is mine.
Inventrix @jhameia Um, I think you're mixing up Caucasian and European. Caucasian indicates ethnic type, European indicates location of ancestry.
jhameia @Inventrix Asian also indicates location of ancestry, as does African.
Inventrix @jhameia Sorry, I didn't realize you were going for an entymological theme. :P I'll just go back over here to my corner of the internet.
jhameia @Inventrix it's all right! a friend who's proud of her Norwegian ancestry suggested it. it seems a nicer label than "white American"
jhameia .@Inventrix I've been using "neo-European" but a lot of people resist that label for some reason.
Inventrix @jhameia Ha, that makes me think of Neo-Victoriana. xD It sounds kind of science-fictiony, actually, although it sounds backwards to me.
jhameia @Inventrix 'neo-European' was used in an academic text about Eurocentrism in global cinema. it's quite interesting.
Inventrix @jhameia My brain reads it as a new European, i.e. someone who has recently become European, as opposed to European ancestry.
jhameia .@Inventrix LOL "new European". okay, *definitely* using "European American" then XD
atlasien .@jhameia: I kinda like "European-American", but don't expect nicer white ppl to use it, since the racists claimed it first, unfortunately.
(atlasien is a Japanese-American blogger who writes at Racialicious.com often. She writes a great deal about adoption issues.)
atlasien .@jhameia: Google "European-American rights" and you will dredge up all kinds of nasty stuff from the internet.
(Aha, Kat! This might be the possible reason you'd get flak for using "European-American"!)
jhameia .@atlasien Fascinating! it seemed to me that "European-American" would be *less* racist than the "white/black" dichotomy
jhameia .@atlasien also, the microaggressive racists these days would probably argue against the use of anything other than plain ol' "American"
jhameia .@atlasien since that term would allow them to erase perceptions of racial divides, and thus ignore racial inequalities that still exist.
DaisyDeadhead @atlasien I used to use "European-American" in discussions, until I realized who else was using it, and quit. But that's accurate label!
(I used to read Daisy Deadhead a lot; she was around for Second Wave feminism, so it's interesting to read about her ruminations on how times and her perspectives have changed.)
atlasien .@DaisyDeadhead: Yes, it's too bad those people ruined a perfectly good term. Perhaps Caucasian-American as a replacement?
atlasien Caucasian is kind of misleading though... since real Caucasian (geographically) people are a discriminated-against minority in Russia
jhameia .@atlasien But "Caucasian" is such a broad term, which applies to Europeans, Asians, Africans. Hmmm...
atlasien Caucasian as racial term is a strange, awkward word that many people use simply because it sounds more scientific than "white"
jhameia .@atlasien @DaisyDeadhead I guess it would be up to those of European descent to decide. I'm just speculating on better terms than "white"
atlasien I always notice black people using it in mixed company to refer to white people, so that white ppl won't get offended by being called white.
atlasien Maybe that's a Southern politeness thing.
atlasien .@jhameia: I think the division is that cryto-racists insist on "just plain American" and constantly decry "hyphenated Americans"
atlasien .@jhameia: when they cross into white supremacy, they embrace hyphenation (European-American) to reinforce a separate white ethnic identity
jhameia in M'sia we used "Caucasian" around white folks, "gwailo" when they're not present.
jhameia .@atlasien Aaah! they're everywhere! interesting thought; what about African- and Asian-Americans who embrace hyphenation?
atlasien .@jhameia: a friend of mine told me a fascinating difference btwn African- and Asian-Americans who embrace hyphenation.
atlasien .@jhameia she claims (as an AfA) that African-Americans embraced hyphenation to reinforce cultural difference. To paraphrase:
atlasien .@jhameia: "we may speak your language, share your country, BUT we have our own separate cultural roots in Africa"
atlasien .@jhameia: whereas Asian-Americans did it for the opposite reason: to claim similarity. "We are Americans too, not perpetual foreigners."
jhameia .@atlasien That is FASCINATING. do you use the AA term that way?
atlasien so the historical stress is AFRICAN-american but asian-AMERICAN. Her argument made a lot of sense to me.
atlasien .@jhameia: yes... I primarily use the term Asian-American when distinguishing Asian-Americans from non-American Asians.
jhameia in M'sia, we use "Malaysian-Chinese" +variations to express "nationality first, race is secondary"
atlasien .@jhameia: very interesting, I wonder if the word placement was in response to particular historical events in Malaysia?
jhameia .@atlasien yes. you can google "May 13 1969 Riots" for some historical basis. racial divides are a big issue in M'sia.
jhameia .@atlasien like in America there's a movement to drop the racial marker altogether to form a "Malaysian race", and a Malay supremacy group
atlasien going to lunch... will read up on Malaysian history later today, very interesting, I know religion (Islam/Buddhism/+) is also in the mix
yeloson @jhameia The tough part is that hyphenation is contextual- it can be used by one group to identify as American, but by another to alienate.
(yeloson isyeloson. I think we run in the same racial circles. I'm not sure. How DO we know each other, yeloson?)
yeloson @jhameia when they want to claim privilege, you're not American, but when you point out inequality, suddenly you are to silence you.
yeloson @jhameia "Aren't we all American"/"Aren't we all human?" is this interesting rhetorical trick-
yeloson @jhameia It's a way of taking the clearly privileged actions out of the dialogue, making them invisible, and blaming those pointing it out.
jhameia .@yeloson exactly. @atlasien was explaining that dynamic to me, and we also have a similar problem in M'sia
vonslatt Mailed off my application for piano lessons, semester starts in January. Looking at digital pianos--any recommendations?
jhameia @vonslatt I have a Casio Privia, full keyboard with weighted keys. Roland also usually has really nice digital pianos. <3
vonslatt @jhameia Thanks! That's one of the ones I was looking at! Thought of your convo when school's application asked for race. :)
jhameia @vonslatt LOL! what did you pick?
vonslatt @jhameia I decide to play nice since they're good folk and it's for federal funding so I checked "Caucasian" rather than using the write-in.
jhameia @vonslatt it's not a bad option. ^_^ keeps things simple for the admins.
jhameia at modelmayhem, models list their skin colour but none of them actually reflect my actual skintone. it's confuzzling.
gooblyglob @jhameia is there an option called "skin colour"? maybe you can choose that :D *smartarse*
(gooblyglob started reading my blogspot a few months back. Like me, she's an Asian woman interested in steampunk. That's... all I know about her, actually, besides the fact that she lives in Australia.)
gooblyglob @jhameia my boyfriend considers himself simply Malaysian even though he is not ethnic Malay
jhameia @gooblyglob i wish! XD but alas, no: brown, white, olive, tanned, other. oddly, we also list ethnicity!
jhameia @gooblyglob a lot of M'sians do. it's the "nationality first" mindset I was telling atlasien about earlier. it confuses me because, once...
jhameia once a malaysian migrates to a different country, are they even malaysian anymore? dun dun dunnn!
vonslatt @jhameia LOL, yeah. Right now I'm trying to figure the intricacies of gender, I'll tackle race later! ;-)
gooblyglob @jhameia my bf family would consider themselves both Malaysian and Australian *shrug* I dunno... they have cute budgies!
gooblyglob @jhameia my bf family are technically not Aust. citizens either lol but they are still "Australians"
jhameia .@vonslatt gender's easy! men catch shit for being men, and women catch shit for being women, transfolk catch shit for crossing genders!
jhameia .@vonslatt and everybody's unhappy until they realize institutionalized behaviours are preventing us all from treating each other nicely.
gooblyglob @jhameia no "oriental" lol... dunno if that's more regressive or progressive! O.o
jhameia .@gooblyglob "Oriental" is a colonial word, so not using it is a good thing! unless using it ironically, that is.
gooblyglob @jhameia erasure of "oriental" = good! because it's racist and colonialist... erasure of "oriental" = erasure of "asians" = bad
vonslatt @jhameia Sounds like you're defining everyone in terms of the binary, tsk tsk! ;-)
gooblyglob @jhameia besides both me and the bf would be "oriental"... except he has dark brown skin and I have beige skin... so that won't work
jhameia @vonslatt that's why I'm feminist. I get to be aware of the travails of the binary while gleefully smashing it! ^_^
vonslatt @jhameia with you 100%!
gooblyglob @jhameia omg... I just realised... I'm almost the same shade as my desk and that's considered "blonde wood"... we are "blonde wood" shades
gooblyglob @jhameia without the cool wood grain patterns of course...
jhameia .@gooblyglob i had no idea there was such a thing as "blonde wood". does it use pantene pro-V? /asshole
gooblyglob @jhameia what colour are you? http://bit.ly/7nQ2V7 | http://bit.ly/5GHbKY - would you like a cabinet... bench or wardrobe...
gooblyglob @jhameia oh dear... there is a paint colour called "pale oriental"
jhameia @gooblyglob at the Dulux site? where?! I'm Midas Touch, I think. hard to tell while my hives havent faded. could be my ego.
More will be added if the conversation keeps going.
katherineokelly's comments in my latest Linkfest, I threw a question out to the Twitterati:what if, instead of using the term "white", we used the term "European American"?
(ETA: Since tweeting this, 4 people have re-tweeted it, including @vonslatt, THE Jake von Slatt of the Steampunk Workshop.)
The responses are various. I will introduce folks as we go along. Maybe.
castusalbuscor @jhameia Ohh but that would devalue the "white american citizen", I am up for it!
Inventrix @jhameia What's wrong with Caucasian?
(I don't really know who this is. S/he started following me one day after I made a Girl Genius tweet.)
jhameia @Inventrix "Caucasian" could apply to an European source-lander, who don't really consider themselves "white".
jhameia @Inventrix also, "European American" indicates an emphasis that this individual is American, with European origins.
Lthemick @jhameia Won't 'European American' undermine the racial identities of Irish-German-Dutch-Italian-French-Polish Americans?
(I don't know who this is either. He introduced himself as Liam, and he found me through blogs.)
jhameia .@Lthemick I don't know. What do the Irish-German-Dutch-Italian-French-Polish Americans think?
jhameia @Lthemick Also, what would the English-Japanese-Native-Polish-Spanish-French think?
vonslatt @jhameia I'm a tri-euromix myself so European American works well for me.
jhameia .@Lthemick what's wrong with qualifiers?
Lthemick @jhameia This Irish-German-English-Welsh-Scot thinks it would be great if we didn't need any qualifiers.
jhameia i identify as Malaysian-Chinese because it's important for me to acknowledge my ethnicity / point of origin as well as nationality.
Lthemick @jhameia I think they carry the same risk as any other label: people make assumptions based on the label rather than the individual.
jhameia .@Lthemick names are important; being able to name ourselves can be empowering. it's not a case of being labeled and judged by someone else
jhameia .@Lthemick as it is acknowledging our histories and cultures through what we call ourselves. it's not for other people, but for ourselves
Lthemick @jhameia I agree: Names are important. But often there's a dichotomy between what a name means to us, and what others make of it.
Lthemick @jhameia It's that disconnect I find regrettable.
jhameia @Lthemick at some point we have to learn when other people's opinions matter, and when they don't. :P
jhameia .@Lthemick I'm already judged by my appearance, but what i call myself is mine.
Inventrix @jhameia Um, I think you're mixing up Caucasian and European. Caucasian indicates ethnic type, European indicates location of ancestry.
jhameia @Inventrix Asian also indicates location of ancestry, as does African.
Inventrix @jhameia Sorry, I didn't realize you were going for an entymological theme. :P I'll just go back over here to my corner of the internet.
jhameia @Inventrix it's all right! a friend who's proud of her Norwegian ancestry suggested it. it seems a nicer label than "white American"
jhameia .@Inventrix I've been using "neo-European" but a lot of people resist that label for some reason.
Inventrix @jhameia Ha, that makes me think of Neo-Victoriana. xD It sounds kind of science-fictiony, actually, although it sounds backwards to me.
jhameia @Inventrix 'neo-European' was used in an academic text about Eurocentrism in global cinema. it's quite interesting.
Inventrix @jhameia My brain reads it as a new European, i.e. someone who has recently become European, as opposed to European ancestry.
jhameia .@Inventrix LOL "new European". okay, *definitely* using "European American" then XD
atlasien .@jhameia: I kinda like "European-American", but don't expect nicer white ppl to use it, since the racists claimed it first, unfortunately.
(atlasien is a Japanese-American blogger who writes at Racialicious.com often. She writes a great deal about adoption issues.)
atlasien .@jhameia: Google "European-American rights" and you will dredge up all kinds of nasty stuff from the internet.
(Aha, Kat! This might be the possible reason you'd get flak for using "European-American"!)
jhameia .@atlasien Fascinating! it seemed to me that "European-American" would be *less* racist than the "white/black" dichotomy
jhameia .@atlasien also, the microaggressive racists these days would probably argue against the use of anything other than plain ol' "American"
jhameia .@atlasien since that term would allow them to erase perceptions of racial divides, and thus ignore racial inequalities that still exist.
DaisyDeadhead @atlasien I used to use "European-American" in discussions, until I realized who else was using it, and quit. But that's accurate label!
(I used to read Daisy Deadhead a lot; she was around for Second Wave feminism, so it's interesting to read about her ruminations on how times and her perspectives have changed.)
atlasien .@DaisyDeadhead: Yes, it's too bad those people ruined a perfectly good term. Perhaps Caucasian-American as a replacement?
atlasien Caucasian is kind of misleading though... since real Caucasian (geographically) people are a discriminated-against minority in Russia
jhameia .@atlasien But "Caucasian" is such a broad term, which applies to Europeans, Asians, Africans. Hmmm...
atlasien Caucasian as racial term is a strange, awkward word that many people use simply because it sounds more scientific than "white"
jhameia .@atlasien @DaisyDeadhead I guess it would be up to those of European descent to decide. I'm just speculating on better terms than "white"
atlasien I always notice black people using it in mixed company to refer to white people, so that white ppl won't get offended by being called white.
atlasien Maybe that's a Southern politeness thing.
atlasien .@jhameia: I think the division is that cryto-racists insist on "just plain American" and constantly decry "hyphenated Americans"
atlasien .@jhameia: when they cross into white supremacy, they embrace hyphenation (European-American) to reinforce a separate white ethnic identity
jhameia in M'sia we used "Caucasian" around white folks, "gwailo" when they're not present.
jhameia .@atlasien Aaah! they're everywhere! interesting thought; what about African- and Asian-Americans who embrace hyphenation?
atlasien .@jhameia: a friend of mine told me a fascinating difference btwn African- and Asian-Americans who embrace hyphenation.
atlasien .@jhameia she claims (as an AfA) that African-Americans embraced hyphenation to reinforce cultural difference. To paraphrase:
atlasien .@jhameia: "we may speak your language, share your country, BUT we have our own separate cultural roots in Africa"
atlasien .@jhameia: whereas Asian-Americans did it for the opposite reason: to claim similarity. "We are Americans too, not perpetual foreigners."
jhameia .@atlasien That is FASCINATING. do you use the AA term that way?
atlasien so the historical stress is AFRICAN-american but asian-AMERICAN. Her argument made a lot of sense to me.
atlasien .@jhameia: yes... I primarily use the term Asian-American when distinguishing Asian-Americans from non-American Asians.
jhameia in M'sia, we use "Malaysian-Chinese" +variations to express "nationality first, race is secondary"
atlasien .@jhameia: very interesting, I wonder if the word placement was in response to particular historical events in Malaysia?
jhameia .@atlasien yes. you can google "May 13 1969 Riots" for some historical basis. racial divides are a big issue in M'sia.
jhameia .@atlasien like in America there's a movement to drop the racial marker altogether to form a "Malaysian race", and a Malay supremacy group
atlasien going to lunch... will read up on Malaysian history later today, very interesting, I know religion (Islam/Buddhism/+) is also in the mix
yeloson @jhameia The tough part is that hyphenation is contextual- it can be used by one group to identify as American, but by another to alienate.
(yeloson is
yeloson. I think we run in the same racial circles. I'm not sure. How DO we know each other, yeloson?)yeloson @jhameia when they want to claim privilege, you're not American, but when you point out inequality, suddenly you are to silence you.
yeloson @jhameia "Aren't we all American"/"Aren't we all human?" is this interesting rhetorical trick-
yeloson @jhameia It's a way of taking the clearly privileged actions out of the dialogue, making them invisible, and blaming those pointing it out.
jhameia .@yeloson exactly. @atlasien was explaining that dynamic to me, and we also have a similar problem in M'sia
vonslatt Mailed off my application for piano lessons, semester starts in January. Looking at digital pianos--any recommendations?
jhameia @vonslatt I have a Casio Privia, full keyboard with weighted keys. Roland also usually has really nice digital pianos. <3
vonslatt @jhameia Thanks! That's one of the ones I was looking at! Thought of your convo when school's application asked for race. :)
jhameia @vonslatt LOL! what did you pick?
vonslatt @jhameia I decide to play nice since they're good folk and it's for federal funding so I checked "Caucasian" rather than using the write-in.
jhameia @vonslatt it's not a bad option. ^_^ keeps things simple for the admins.
jhameia at modelmayhem, models list their skin colour but none of them actually reflect my actual skintone. it's confuzzling.
gooblyglob @jhameia is there an option called "skin colour"? maybe you can choose that :D *smartarse*
(gooblyglob started reading my blogspot a few months back. Like me, she's an Asian woman interested in steampunk. That's... all I know about her, actually, besides the fact that she lives in Australia.)
gooblyglob @jhameia my boyfriend considers himself simply Malaysian even though he is not ethnic Malay
jhameia @gooblyglob i wish! XD but alas, no: brown, white, olive, tanned, other. oddly, we also list ethnicity!
jhameia @gooblyglob a lot of M'sians do. it's the "nationality first" mindset I was telling atlasien about earlier. it confuses me because, once...
jhameia once a malaysian migrates to a different country, are they even malaysian anymore? dun dun dunnn!
vonslatt @jhameia LOL, yeah. Right now I'm trying to figure the intricacies of gender, I'll tackle race later! ;-)
gooblyglob @jhameia my bf family would consider themselves both Malaysian and Australian *shrug* I dunno... they have cute budgies!
gooblyglob @jhameia my bf family are technically not Aust. citizens either lol but they are still "Australians"
jhameia .@vonslatt gender's easy! men catch shit for being men, and women catch shit for being women, transfolk catch shit for crossing genders!
jhameia .@vonslatt and everybody's unhappy until they realize institutionalized behaviours are preventing us all from treating each other nicely.
gooblyglob @jhameia no "oriental" lol... dunno if that's more regressive or progressive! O.o
jhameia .@gooblyglob "Oriental" is a colonial word, so not using it is a good thing! unless using it ironically, that is.
gooblyglob @jhameia erasure of "oriental" = good! because it's racist and colonialist... erasure of "oriental" = erasure of "asians" = bad
vonslatt @jhameia Sounds like you're defining everyone in terms of the binary, tsk tsk! ;-)
gooblyglob @jhameia besides both me and the bf would be "oriental"... except he has dark brown skin and I have beige skin... so that won't work
jhameia @vonslatt that's why I'm feminist. I get to be aware of the travails of the binary while gleefully smashing it! ^_^
vonslatt @jhameia with you 100%!
gooblyglob @jhameia omg... I just realised... I'm almost the same shade as my desk and that's considered "blonde wood"... we are "blonde wood" shades
gooblyglob @jhameia without the cool wood grain patterns of course...
jhameia .@gooblyglob i had no idea there was such a thing as "blonde wood". does it use pantene pro-V? /asshole
gooblyglob @jhameia what colour are you? http://bit.ly/7nQ2V7 | http://bit.ly/5GHbKY - would you like a cabinet... bench or wardrobe...
gooblyglob @jhameia oh dear... there is a paint colour called "pale oriental"
jhameia @gooblyglob at the Dulux site? where?! I'm Midas Touch, I think. hard to tell while my hives havent faded. could be my ego.
More will be added if the conversation keeps going.
Re: as I explained to fantasyecho
Date: 2009-12-09 04:41 pm (UTC)Re: as I explained to fantasyecho
Date: 2009-12-10 04:13 am (UTC)Re: as I explained to fantasyecho
Date: 2009-12-10 05:20 pm (UTC)When you entered your race for documents, did you put in Bengali if the Lain-Lain allowed you to specify?
Re: as I explained to fantasyecho
Date: 2009-12-10 06:40 pm (UTC)Re: as I explained to fantasyecho
Date: 2009-12-10 08:30 pm (UTC)Re: as I explained to fantasyecho
Date: 2009-12-10 08:44 pm (UTC)Re: as I explained to fantasyecho
Date: 2009-12-10 08:57 pm (UTC)