Roles and Responsibilities of Friends
Apr. 19th, 2009 08:17 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jhameiaThere is this very long and painful thread over at Feministing wherein a survivor of an assault wrote in to ask for advice, since the assault has left her unable to enjoy sex with her boyfriend anymore, and her social life is completely ruined because her "friends" are complete and utter douchebags.
There's a lot of bandying around of "was it assault???? LEGALLY PERSONALLY FROM AN OBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW SINCE WE ARE STRANGERS WE CAN TOTALLY TELL AND DEBATE OVER WHAT IS OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING VERY PERSONAL TO THIS PERSON." Frankly? I find that to be a lot of fucking noise. The problem with this isn't "we don't know the whole story" (what, so we don't need to know anything beyond "she's completely traumatized by some douchebag's taking advantage of her" to lend her support?) - "we don't know the whole story" already pre-supposes a set of conditions that not everyone can agree on. We can't we let victims work through it and help them name what happened to them themselves. I was once in a situation which could be called assault, but I don't name it that. It makes me feel better to be able to call the shots on what's happened in my own life. It would be irritating to have someone else butt in and say "OF COURSE IT WAS. YOU HAVE TO DO A, B AND C NOW".
There's also a lot of bandying of individual responsibility when drunk. Look, if you know you're out of control when you're drunk, it's probably a bad idea to be drinking. Also a bad idea to be around other people who drink. But you probably already know that, so whatever. It doesn't cancel out the fact that bad shit happened to you that was out of your control due to someone else's douchebaggery. (Also, it should be noted that a) she was harangued to drink, despite the caveat she presented already, and b) the "just say no" thing? Try doing that when you're surrounded by people you're supposed to trust who keep telling you otherwise and get cross with you when you don't.) And everyone else who's saying "well, you do have to admit to some responsibility to the situation because you drank, and since you consented to the drinking, you consented to anything that happened next" - buddies, she doesn't have to admit to doing something she didn't fucking want to do in the first place and ended up doing because, hey, guess what! She was drunk! I subscribe to the idea of "enthusiastic participation", if not just "enthusiastic consent", sober, authentic, honest, un-pushed for.
Anyways, that's not the biggest problem I have right now.
My problem is with the idea that "when you're out drinking, you're responsible for yourself, and your friends are not responsible for your actions." There is this idea that "you're an adult, you can't expect your friends to police and monitor your own actions, you should be doing it yourself." This said without a trace of irony, even though many of us go out partying with people we feel safe with, which is why we picked them in the first place. This underlying idea said, even though we trust our friends to look out for us and help us.
Listen, if you're out partying with a friend whom you know gets out of control because she drinks too much? It is, indeed, your fucking business to make sure she doesn't get into trouble for it. If you know she has the tendency to drink too much and is making visible effort not to? It is, indeed, your fucking business to help her monitor her drinks. If you notice someone else trying to pressure her into drinking when she clearly doesn't want to? It is, indeed, your fucking business to tell that someone else to fuck right the hell off. If she's drinking anyway and you know she might do something she'll regret later? It is, indeed, your fucking business to make sure she gets out of the situation as safely as possible.
And frankly? If you're choosing to hang out with other people and making sure everyone has a great time, it is, indeed, your fucking business to make sure everyone is safe (not just feels safe) and to accomodate any desire of theirs to not want to participate in your own form of fun. If they don't want to dance, and they walk off the floor when you try to get them to, you carrying on dancing while keeping an eye on them. If they don't want to drink, stop harrassing them to drink (yes, this has happened to me before, and it's a pain in the ass. Ah, but I'm lucky - most people end up drinking anyway and regret it).
If you DIDN'T want to ruin your own fun by having to help your friend out? You should have chosen not to hang with such a party-pooper in the first goddamn place and found someone else who wouldn't impinge on your own drunken fun.
It is seriously not that hard.
Part of being friends is taking care of each other. This is not about policing our friends. This is not about monitoring their every action and taking notes and ruining their fun. This is not about playing a parent. This is not about giving up our own fun, either. One assumes that if you want to get together with friends, the point is to create happy memories.
It is already unfortunate enough for a lot of us that the people we thought we know and trust turn out to be complete and utter douchebags who can't be arsed about your personal safety and well-being. It is bad enough that many of us find that the people we consider our friends are not, not really. It is bad enough many people find themselves violated, manipulated, lied to, and/or otherwise hurt by people we considered close to us.
If you can't, or won't, take at least a bit of responsibility and DO something in these situations you KNOW might end up dangerous for people should one of you guys get out of control, then you bear some blame for any fallout in the aftermath of the whole sordid affair.
I know we live in some fuck-assed "individualistic" society where people apparently look out only for themselves - that doesn't make it ideal, and since we know it isn't, we ought to all be making sure we play our part.
Just, ugh, I can't believe that this is even an issue. But I see it SO MUCH, I can't not say anything about it.
There's a lot of bandying around of "was it assault???? LEGALLY PERSONALLY FROM AN OBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW SINCE WE ARE STRANGERS WE CAN TOTALLY TELL AND DEBATE OVER WHAT IS OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING VERY PERSONAL TO THIS PERSON." Frankly? I find that to be a lot of fucking noise. The problem with this isn't "we don't know the whole story" (what, so we don't need to know anything beyond "she's completely traumatized by some douchebag's taking advantage of her" to lend her support?) - "we don't know the whole story" already pre-supposes a set of conditions that not everyone can agree on. We can't we let victims work through it and help them name what happened to them themselves. I was once in a situation which could be called assault, but I don't name it that. It makes me feel better to be able to call the shots on what's happened in my own life. It would be irritating to have someone else butt in and say "OF COURSE IT WAS. YOU HAVE TO DO A, B AND C NOW".
There's also a lot of bandying of individual responsibility when drunk. Look, if you know you're out of control when you're drunk, it's probably a bad idea to be drinking. Also a bad idea to be around other people who drink. But you probably already know that, so whatever. It doesn't cancel out the fact that bad shit happened to you that was out of your control due to someone else's douchebaggery. (Also, it should be noted that a) she was harangued to drink, despite the caveat she presented already, and b) the "just say no" thing? Try doing that when you're surrounded by people you're supposed to trust who keep telling you otherwise and get cross with you when you don't.) And everyone else who's saying "well, you do have to admit to some responsibility to the situation because you drank, and since you consented to the drinking, you consented to anything that happened next" - buddies, she doesn't have to admit to doing something she didn't fucking want to do in the first place and ended up doing because, hey, guess what! She was drunk! I subscribe to the idea of "enthusiastic participation", if not just "enthusiastic consent", sober, authentic, honest, un-pushed for.
Anyways, that's not the biggest problem I have right now.
My problem is with the idea that "when you're out drinking, you're responsible for yourself, and your friends are not responsible for your actions." There is this idea that "you're an adult, you can't expect your friends to police and monitor your own actions, you should be doing it yourself." This said without a trace of irony, even though many of us go out partying with people we feel safe with, which is why we picked them in the first place. This underlying idea said, even though we trust our friends to look out for us and help us.
Listen, if you're out partying with a friend whom you know gets out of control because she drinks too much? It is, indeed, your fucking business to make sure she doesn't get into trouble for it. If you know she has the tendency to drink too much and is making visible effort not to? It is, indeed, your fucking business to help her monitor her drinks. If you notice someone else trying to pressure her into drinking when she clearly doesn't want to? It is, indeed, your fucking business to tell that someone else to fuck right the hell off. If she's drinking anyway and you know she might do something she'll regret later? It is, indeed, your fucking business to make sure she gets out of the situation as safely as possible.
And frankly? If you're choosing to hang out with other people and making sure everyone has a great time, it is, indeed, your fucking business to make sure everyone is safe (not just feels safe) and to accomodate any desire of theirs to not want to participate in your own form of fun. If they don't want to dance, and they walk off the floor when you try to get them to, you carrying on dancing while keeping an eye on them. If they don't want to drink, stop harrassing them to drink (yes, this has happened to me before, and it's a pain in the ass. Ah, but I'm lucky - most people end up drinking anyway and regret it).
If you DIDN'T want to ruin your own fun by having to help your friend out? You should have chosen not to hang with such a party-pooper in the first goddamn place and found someone else who wouldn't impinge on your own drunken fun.
It is seriously not that hard.
Part of being friends is taking care of each other. This is not about policing our friends. This is not about monitoring their every action and taking notes and ruining their fun. This is not about playing a parent. This is not about giving up our own fun, either. One assumes that if you want to get together with friends, the point is to create happy memories.
It is already unfortunate enough for a lot of us that the people we thought we know and trust turn out to be complete and utter douchebags who can't be arsed about your personal safety and well-being. It is bad enough that many of us find that the people we consider our friends are not, not really. It is bad enough many people find themselves violated, manipulated, lied to, and/or otherwise hurt by people we considered close to us.
If you can't, or won't, take at least a bit of responsibility and DO something in these situations you KNOW might end up dangerous for people should one of you guys get out of control, then you bear some blame for any fallout in the aftermath of the whole sordid affair.
I know we live in some fuck-assed "individualistic" society where people apparently look out only for themselves - that doesn't make it ideal, and since we know it isn't, we ought to all be making sure we play our part.
Just, ugh, I can't believe that this is even an issue. But I see it SO MUCH, I can't not say anything about it.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-20 12:48 am (UTC)*dodges thrown objects*
If they don't want to drink, stop harrassing them to drink
One of the guys I was living with in London was personally offended that I teetotal; he hassled me for five or six months in an increasingly-desperate attempt to get me drunk purely for its own sake. It's made me rather glad that my friends just accept that I don't drink. :P
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-20 12:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-20 12:51 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-20 12:55 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-20 12:56 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-20 01:04 am (UTC)Opinion given, unsolicited.
Date: 2009-04-20 04:27 am (UTC)At some point, after multiple bad nights out with douchebags, you are, at some point supposed to say, "Goddamn, these people are douchebags," and react appropriately. But you get maybe one or two or three grace night outs, because hey, you could be blur sotong, it's not your fault that you are. But once you realize it, don't go out with them again. Do something else with someone else. Yes, I know, it sucks. I'm sorry to hear about your situation.
And oh, if you do pressure your friends to drink, let's not mince words here: you're a douchebag. And if you take advantage of inebriated people: you're a sexual predator. No, stop. Don't defend yourself. That's what you are. Don't justify, it only makes you a pathetic douchebag/sexual predator, on the same level as some adolescent cockmonkey on the Internet who keeps going on about "survival of the fittest" to justify their shitty behavior.
If you're a sexual predator, I hope you get caught one day. If you're a douchebag, I hope you get the friends you so deserve.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-20 10:14 am (UTC)There have been times where people I know got stupidface drunk and almost throughout their drunkenness, I kept an eye out for them. I'm not gonna mother them but I will try and make sure that they don't do anything they might regret e.g. going off with a complete stranger whilst being highly drunk. Some appreciate it, some don't even realize that you did that. I don't mind. I'm just glad to know that nothing bad happened to them.
Tbh That's one of the reasons why I don't drink much or get drunk. 'Cause honestly, I don't trust anyone to have my back if shit were to go down.
drinking with people
Date: 2009-04-28 04:09 pm (UTC)